Pakistan interested in Hurkus C Low cost COIN aircraft

[CriticalThought]

First you decide its going to be a military decision based on capability and requirement or a political decision based on brotherly relations ? these are two different things I am afraid.

They don't need to be.

 

[mrrehan]

1. The reason why the Hürkuş is being looked at (to replace the T-37) is lower flying costs than the K-8. Yes, the cost will be higher initially when the new plane is bought, but the savings from fuel cost over a period of 15-20+ years will make up for it.

2. The Hürkuş is very different from the Mushshak. The Hürkuş is turboprop powered with performance relatively close to an old jet like T-37 but with much lower flying costs, and the Mushshak is a piston trainer for basic training.

3. Pakistan already has experience and infrastructure for the Hürkuş' engine - the Pratt & Whitney Canada PT6 via the Cessna Grand Caravan EX, King Air 350ER, etc. PAC began working on a MRO site for the PT6 in 2015. So the engine maintenance, which makes up a big portion of servicing, is already in place.

4. If the Hürkuş is bought it won't replace K-8, but take the role of the T-37 before K-8. Pilots from the Hürkuş will move to the K-8. Why not go straight from Mushshak? That will be costly in long-term operating costs, it might be cheaper to have Hürkuş in the middle to provide most training (and more flying hours) before sending to K-8.

I think Turkish air force is using Hürkuş for basic to advance flight training. I think some variant of PT6 is also in A-29 Super Tucano. I wish Pakistan the best in any way.

 

[The Accountant]

K8 is jet air craft, have lesser range & loiter time plus more maintenance prone compared to propeller air craft.
S Mushak is light trainer with limited payload. It becomes unstable while delivering bombs. Both K8 & Mushak will need several upgrades for carrying precise munitions. Idea of COIN specific light air support air craft is new & unique which is now followed by several nations around the Globe, have growing market as insurgency threats are increasing with passing days. Its actually a smart & pro active decision taken by army, we should appreciate that.......

Sir a platform induction is not just platform induction itself but requires a lot of other tasks which are far most costly that includes integration with existing infrastructure aetting up supply chain, weapon integration and weapon inventory ... it will always be better ro have same stream of weapons and same avionics atleast in such a low tech incentive operations we should have some domestic avionics and weapon platform ... as a weapon package is for several decades i would like to recommend to develop a domestic platform with domestic aviation and domestic weapon package that will be much more cost effective in longer run ...

 

[Aasimkhan]

Sir a platform induction is not just platform induction itself but requires a lot of other tasks which are far most costly that includes integration with existing infrastructure aetting up supply chain, weapon integration and weapon inventory ... it will always be better ro have same stream of weapons and same avionics atleast in such a low tech incentive operations we should have some domestic avionics and weapon platform ... as a weapon package is for several decades i would like to recommend to develop a domestic platform with domestic aviation and domestic weapon package that will be much more cost effective in longer run ...

Excellent analysis. We cannot and should not buy every machine which the sellers are offering in the show case. Aeroplane is for next 50 years, not just one operation. We may not need them after 5 years. PAF is and should remain IAF specific force in the near foreseeable future. K8 is a turbofan engine which is good enough for COIN operations. We should try to capitalize on it. If loiter time is required we should use Chinese drones with 60 hours endurance.

 

[The Accountant]

Excellent analysis. We cannot and should not buy every machine which the sellers are offering in the show case. Aeroplane is for next 50 years, not just one operation. We may not need them after 5 years. PAF is and should remain IAF specific force in the near foreseeable future. K8 is a turbofan engine which is good enough for COIN operations. We should try to capitalize on it. If loiter time is required we should use Chinese drones with 60 hours endurance.

For COIN operations drones are the best and is we heard recently that Pakistan is working on MALE drones ... with MALE drones in there will be no need of these COIN aircrafts ...

 

[CriticalThought]

For COIN operations drones are the best and is we heard recently that Pakistan is working on MALE drones ... with MALE drones in there will be no need of these COIN aircrafts ...

How about turning the Horkus into a drone?

 

[The Accountant]

How about turning the Horkus into a drone?

No advantages ... too small loiter time, too high per hour operational cost and the advantage (over drone) of seeing from eye gone then there is no use ...

The benefits UAV has over other fighters:

low per hour cost,
high loiter time,
long term survillance and can wait for the pray for long hours to attack ...
accuracy of attack ..

cons

No human eye means chances of errors are high
slow ...

so why do you think that horkus could help after converting them into drone ?

 

[Signalian]

No advantages ... too small loiter time, too high per hour operational cost and the advantage (over drone) of seeing from eye gone then there is no use ...

The benefits UAV has over other fighters:

low per hour cost,
high loiter time,
long term survillance and can wait for the pray for long hours to attack ...
accuracy of attack ..

cons

No human eye means chances of errors are high
slow ...

so why do you think that horkus could help after converting them into drone ?

Advantages of COIN Plane over UCAV:

Strafing runs. Using 12.7 to 30mm guns, which itself are low cost weapons. Compare the cost of taking out a target by using an ATGM fired by UCAV vs few rounds of gun fired by COIN Plane.

Better payload. Planes are bigger and can carry bigger load, compared with current UCAV Pakistan has in service.

Diverse payload. Planes can carry guns, rocket pods, ATGM's, bombs and other unguided weapons etc. UCAV can carry ATGM and bombs.

Diverse Targets. Planes can target all targets using its wide variety of weapon choice, even individual miscreants running in different directions or vehicles or towers or bunkers or all of these. With UCAV, the targets will be high valued in majority of cases.

However, the biggest dis-advantage that a plane has compared to a UCAV which you didnt mention is:
Risk of LOSS of life of trained pilots if the plane crashes.

 

[khanasifm]

I had asked this question years back from a paf officer when USAF replaced t-37s with t-6 i.e. A jet with turboprop and Reply was k8 engine as almost as efficient as turbopro and its endurance is also pretty good 4.2 hour with drops so the answer was there is No need to move away from turbofan Honeywell engine base k8 to another nrw trainer which is based on turboprop as far as coin/soin paf is small third world Air Force and cannot be mimicking usaf on every step plus usaf cover the globe paf will be done with fata on year or so or I am not sure where is the source of this news August 2017 AFM article on paf clearly stated it, end of story

http://www.pac.org.pk/k-8

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Seems logical to train pilots on a propeller based plane , and then move them to K8 etc logical move by Pakistan Airforce to try to induct this lighter craft for training purpose

 

[khanasifm]

Seems logical to train pilots on a propeller based plane , and then move them to K8 etc logical move by Pakistan Airforce to try to induct this lighter craft for training purpose

Not sure what is the source
Of this new buzz? Bangladesh and pak folks posting new threads where both claim they are buying the whole world fro SU to mig35 to LIFT to what not and that's only Air Force

I will let mod/dod announce or the service announce before any one accepts the claim, good example new Saab 2k were announced just before December delivery

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Not sure what is the source
Of this new buzz? Bangladesh and pak folks posting new threads where both claim they are buying the whole world fro SU to mig35 to LIFT to what not and that's only Air Force

I will let mod/dod announce or the service announce before any one accepts the claim, good example new Saab 2k were announced just before December delivery

The one making the claim is the Turkish news outlet Kokpit Aero (link). They're saying that the PAF is going to release a tender to TAI, IOMAX and Embraer, but TAI is confident of winning the bid. We'll find out if this news is false or not soon, e.g. Dubai Air Show.

 

[khanasifm]

The one making the claim is the Turkish news outlet Kokpit Aero (link). They're saying that the PAF is going to release a tender to TAI, IOMAX and Embraer, but TAI is confident of winning the bid. We'll find out if this news is false or not soon, e.g. Dubai Air Show.

Brazilian Ac need clearance form USA and cost more than jf-17 based on what being quoted to Nigeria about 50 million a piece far more than what lebonan got at 35 million a piece anyway time will tell but based on August 2017 AFM article acm/paf said they will adopt a coin strategy rather than acquiring future generation coin aircraft

Anyway it may be just a rfi and nothing more like LIFT time will tell

Lastly both USA a/c has endurance of more than 8 hours vs tai 4 hours over battle field ??

 

[Thorough Pro]

and how do they do it now? What do they use Mushaq for?

Seems logical to train pilots on a propeller based plane , and then move them to K8 etc logical move by Pakistan Airforce to try to induct this lighter craft for training purpose

 

[The Accountant]

Advantages of COIN Plane over UCAV:

Strafing runs. Using 12.7 to 30mm guns, which itself are low cost weapons. Compare the cost of taking out a target by using an ATGM fired by UCAV vs few rounds of gun fired by COIN Plane.

Better payload. Planes are bigger and can carry bigger load, compared with current UCAV Pakistan has in service.

Diverse payload. Planes can carry guns, rocket pods, ATGM's, bombs and other unguided weapons etc. UCAV can carry ATGM and bombs.

Diverse Targets. Planes can target all targets using its wide variety of weapon choice, even individual miscreants running in different directions or vehicles or towers or bunkers or all of these. With UCAV, the targets will be high valued in majority of cases.

However, the biggest dis-advantage that a plane has compared to a UCAV which you didnt mention is:
Risk of LOSS of life of trained pilots if the plane crashes.

Sir g, if any of the adventure needed than we can use jet fighters ,,, or we can arm K8 with machine gun there is no need of a separate platfrom for COIN ... The cost per hour of operating a plane v/s UCAV is the key factor which turns the table in favour of UCAV ... You can mass produce them and you can armed them with whatever you want ... A new platform just for COIN will be very costly ...