Pakistan interested in Hurkus C Low cost COIN aircraft

[Aasimkhan]

personally id go for the k8 and with a bit of work, it can be around the same category as the a10.

We must develop K8 and Mushak for such roles, no more imports. Work on indigenization.

 

[Sulman Badshah]

Yes, they are. That is exactly the reason why we did not employ any such 'grasshoppers' in Angola as they could be taken out by RPG-7 i the hands of cubans. I am not joking - one mission we had Dak come back with an RPG 7 hung in its tail. Impalas were there for that mission - in same league as K-8s as SA-7s were constantly a threat; flying in always at around 100m or lower.

For low level insurgency it is an overkill if mission is using standoff weapons. Ahrlac will do the job fine. Cheap and effective.
http://www.ahrlac.com/technical-overview.html
http://www.ahrlac.com/platform-overview.html

There is Ahrlac model in PAC as well .. It was gifted by South African deligation

 

[Tipu7]

We must develop K8 and Mushak for such roles, no more imports. Work on indigenization.

K8 is jet air craft, have lesser range & loiter time plus more maintenance prone compared to propeller air craft.
S Mushak is light trainer with limited payload. It becomes unstable while delivering bombs. Both K8 & Mushak will need several upgrades for carrying precise munitions. Idea of COIN specific light air support air craft is new & unique which is now followed by several nations around the Globe, have growing market as insurgency threats are increasing with passing days. Its actually a smart & pro active decision taken by army, we should appreciate that.......

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

K8 is jet air craft, have lesser range & loiter time plus more maintenance prone compared to propeller air craft.
S Mushak is light trainer with limited payload. It becomes unstable while delivering bombs. Both K8 & Mushak will need several upgrades for carrying precise munitions. Idea of COIN specific light air support air craft is new & unique which is now followed by several nations around the Globe, have growing market as insurgency threats are increasing with passing days. Its actually a smart & pro active decision taken by army, we should appreciate that.......

In fact TAI is working on a jet version of Hurkush (Free Bird) with indigenous engine...

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

In fact TAI is working on a jet version of Hurkush (Free Bird) with indigenous engine...

Given all that we've heard ... from T129 to TFX to the Hürkuş ... it wouldn't surprise me if the PAF decided to hold-off on all current LIFT/AJT options (e.g. L-15, Yak-130, T-50, etc) to see the TAI T-X trainer.

In fact, if we read the description given for the Freedom Trainer/T-X (by Sierra Nevada Corporation), it almost echos the PAF's sentiments about current LIFTs being too costly, up-gunned over-sophisticated for the role.

The company’s twin-tail, moderately swept-wing trainer with a tricycle landing gear and step-tandem cockpit is powered by the Williams International FJ44-4M, a 3,600-lb.-thrust-class engine chosen by the Aero Vodochody L-39NG and Leonardo/Alenia Aermacchi M-345 High-Efficiency Trainer. Williams certified the engine in 2010 for the light business jet market, providing a cruise speed of up to 450 kt. over a 2,000-nm range with 5,000 flight hours between overhauls. It was chosen as the Freedom Trainer offering due to its relatively inexpensive procurement and sustainment costs as well as fuel efficiency, with the company saying it can buy two Williams engines for half the cost of one high-power military turbofan.

SNC/TAI’s proposal is for a purely a fly-by-wire trainer, seeming to leave little design margin for secondary light-attack or aggressor roles. Instead, the aircraft digitally replicates radar intercepts, precision-guided munition drops and the use of targeting pods. The aircraft is no larger than the GE J85-5-powered T-38 and consumes 30% less fuel, allowing weight reductions across the board to boost high subsonic performance at lower thrust levels. “We’re focusing on open architecture and lowest total ownership cost,” one company executive explains. The Freedom Trainer also is designed to fully comply with the Air Force’s Open Mission System standards to prevent “vendor-lock,” even though that requirement was dropped. “We did not want to drive costly design/redesign into systems that may otherwise meet the objective requirement,” an Air Force Life Cycle Management Center official says. SNC believes buying into any proprietary systems will drive up costs later.

http://aviationweek.com/defense/sierra-nevada-corp-tai-team-offer-freedom-trainer-t-x

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

Can hurkus replace aging trainers at risalpur????

Given all that we've heard ... from T129 to TFX to the Hürkuş ... it wouldn't surprise me if the PAF decided to hold-off on all current LIFT/AJT options (e.g. L-15, Yak-130, T-50, etc) to see the TAI T-X trainer.

In fact, if we read the description given for the Freedom Trainer/T-X (by Sierra Nevada Corporation), it almost echos the PAF's sentiments about current LIFTs being too costly, up-gunned over-sophisticated for the role.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Can hurkus replace aging trainers at risalpur????

T-37s.

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

Could you please elaborate???

T-37s.

In any case I think hurkus is ideal for PAA for CAS COIN and maybe even anti armor role

 

[jamal18]

We must develop K8 and Mushak for such roles, no more imports. Work on indigenization.

It's heart breaking that we can't make something as simple as a turbo-prop coin aircraft.

 

[khanasifm]

 

[war&peace]

Currently, COINs are forming a large chunk of military operations in Pakistan and thus a dedicated airplane with right features can; not only reduce the cost of the operations, it will also increase the precision and accuracy of the strikes in addition to freeing up higher end aircraft for other threats and operations emanating from the east. And if acquired in large numbers, it may be produced locally with some ToT.

 

[Cornered Tiger]

View attachment 419565

That is all very right, But we can save money by using simple and maintenance friendly aircraft. Its ammunition will have the commonality with T-129 as well. So we can standardize ammunition as well

 

[Path-Finder]

View attachment 419565

cost of a jet flying vs a piston aircraft could be the reason. at the cost of flying sorties by a jet more piston planes can be in the air and loitre far longer as well. Makes good sense to consider a low cost solution for a low intensity conflict.

 

[Tipu7]

Correct as far as PAF is concerned. But for how long you want PAF involved in COIN Ops in West? Will army call PAF every time the moment it will need CAS at any random site? Or its better that army call its own Aviation CAS squadron for this job?
I guess second choice is much feasible. PAF real job is to deal with IAF & India specific threats. They must be freed from duties on Western borders ASAP.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

cost of a jet flying vs a piston aircraft could be the reason. at the cost of flying sorties by a jet more piston planes can be in the air and loitre far longer as well. Makes good sense to consider a low cost solution for a low intensity conflict.

Still, for the Hürkuş-C to be affordable, the maintenance and support of the aircraft has to be localized too. Fuel is one contributor to cost, but so are spare parts. Fortunately, Pakistan is already experienced with operating the PT6 turboprop (and turboshaft) engine via the King Air 350ER and Grand Caravan EX. PAC is also setting up (if it hasn't already) a maintenance, repair and overhaul (MRO) facility for the PT6 at the Mirage Rebuild Factory.

Engine MRO is a major step already, but local production of LRU and even airframes (via work share) could push overall costs down to where the Hürkuş-C becomes cheaper to manage than the JF-17. However, as I said earlier, it's only going to be possible if the Hürkuş-B is adopted to replace the T-37 and, in turn, Pakistan manufactures the airframe (and spare parts) domestically.

Correct as far as PAF is concerned. But for how long you want PAF involved in COIN Ops in West? Will army call PAF every time the moment it will need CAS at any random site? Or its better that army call its own Aviation CAS squadron for this job?
I guess second choice is much feasible. PAF real job is to deal with IAF & India specific threats. They must be freed from duties on Western borders ASAP.

Ultimately, COIN needs to be in the hands of the Ministry of Interior and Pakistan's paramilitary forces. Yes, that means vastly raising the quality of capability of the Frontier Corps (and others), but it has to happen. The armed forces proper should only be tuned for conventional warfare, leave internal security to internal forces.

If they can't be amalgamated, then I believe the Frontier Corps (both KP and Baluchistan) and Rangers (both Sindh and Punjab) should be downsized to make room for a separate National Guard.

Give the National Guard its own organic officer corps and NCO cadres. Give them the mandate to address high-risk internal security problems, including COIN. Equip them with Hürkuş-C, UAV, attack and transport helicopters, ISR assets, light armoured vehicles, etc. In conventional war, these same forces can be pivoted to guard infrastructure - such as energy sites, dockyards, shipyards, roads, etc.