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Pakistan Inadvertantly Admits That Its First Strike Capability Is Neutered:--

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Looks like many are ignorant about the capabilities of latest American systems for tackling ballistic missiles and similar threats. THAAD have excellent testing record (believed to be the best ABM system of its class and range) and several batteries are ready for deployment in a war. MEADS program is also approaching maturity (recently demonstrated the ability to intercept multiple targets at a time). PAC-3 is considered to be low-tier ABM platform at present (even the inferior PAC-2 system have actual record of intercepting missiles during a war in 2003). An ABM system designed by Boeing have intercepted a long-range missile [deep in the space] in a test in 2014; more tests will be carried out in the near future.

Pakistan cannot ensure MAD with the US on the nuclear front, period.

On the other hand, indigenious Indian ABM program haven't neutered Pakistan's nuclear FSC. It is far from its objectives. This is why India is seeking S-400 systems from Russia.
 
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how would India and the U.S intercept dozens of these.

I think you are overestimating anti missile defense systems.


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Americans have developed a radar system known as JLENS. It is capable of detecting and tracking cruise missiles (of all types) and it can be integrated with an ABM system whose interceptors are sophisticated enough to intercept cruise missiles. I believe there are additional radar systems that are also capable of detecting and tracking cruise missiles.

Aegis BMD system have the capability to intercept cruise missiles. Evidence of live intercept can be found even on YouTube. Look into the capabilities of SM-6 interceptor.

But for your convenience:

http://breakingdefense.com/2014/08/non-standard-navy-sm-6-kills-cruise-missiles-deep-inland/
http://www.raytheon.com/capabilities/products/sm-6/
 
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Americans have developed a radar system known as JLENS.

Which may be junked after underperformance:

The Pentagon wanted to refloat JLENS after tracing the cause of the October incident to a faulty air pressure sensor that allowed the aerostat’s tail fins to partially deflate in high winds. But Congress cut funding for JLENS in the current fiscal 2016 defence budget and in March, the Senate Appropriations Committee turned down the DOD's request to realign funding to fix the aerostat and resume trials.

This week, Congress moved a step closer to killing the programme entirely, with the House Armed Services panel adopting legislation that would limit spending on JLENS to $2.2 million as opposed to the $45 million listed in the Army's fiscal year 2017 budget submission.

“This isn’t the first time we’ve tried to let the air out of this balloon,” says Congresswoman Jackie Speier, who proposed the amendment to the fiscal 2017 defence policy bill. “Let’s hope this ‘zombie programme’ stays dead this time.”

If passed by the full Congress and signed into law, the will be the final nail in the coffin for the long-running JLENS effort. The Army originally wanted to field 16 JLENS units, but stopped at two for testing at the Aberdeen Proving Ground.

http://www.*********************.com/forums/attachments/pub_jlens_infographic_raytheon_lg-gif.3281/

Read More at: Raytheon's Aerostat Could be Deflated | The American Military Forum

THAAD have excellent testing record (believed to be the best ABM system of its class and range) and several batteries are ready for deployment in a war.

I'd give that title to SM-3 or its land-based counterpart AEGIS Ashore, but THAAD is damn good too and its radar is giving both Russia and China chills:P.

USS_Lake_Erie_%28CG-70%29_SM-3_start.jpg


And GBI is coming along nicely after a redesign of the test vehicle:

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BI229025.jpg


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Which may be junked after underperformance:

The Pentagon wanted to refloat JLENS after tracing the cause of the October incident to a faulty air pressure sensor that allowed the aerostat’s tail fins to partially deflate in high winds. But Congress cut funding for JLENS in the current fiscal 2016 defence budget and in March, the Senate Appropriations Committee turned down the DOD's request to realign funding to fix the aerostat and resume trials.

This week, Congress moved a step closer to killing the programme entirely, with the House Armed Services panel adopting legislation that would limit spending on JLENS to $2.2 million as opposed to the $45 million listed in the Army's fiscal year 2017 budget submission.

“This isn’t the first time we’ve tried to let the air out of this balloon,” says Congresswoman Jackie Speier, who proposed the amendment to the fiscal 2017 defence policy bill. “Let’s hope this ‘zombie programme’ stays dead this time.”

If passed by the full Congress and signed into law, the will be the final nail in the coffin for the long-running JLENS effort. The Army originally wanted to field 16 JLENS units, but stopped at two for testing at the Aberdeen Proving Ground.

http://www.*********************.com/forums/attachments/pub_jlens_infographic_raytheon_lg-gif.3281/

Read More at: Raytheon's Aerostat Could be Deflated | The American Military Forum
JLENS is just an example. The capability of detecting cruise missiles is there and Americans have it. They have conducted cruise missile (intercepting) tests as well.

I'd give that title to SM-3 or its land-based counterpart AEGIS Ashore, but THAAD is damn good too and its radar is giving both Russia and China chills:P.
Indeed.

US is interested in deploying a THAAD system in South Korea after recent North Korean Nuclear Sabre-rattling but China have warned US of irreparable diplomatic fallout if this happens. Therefore, Americans may not deploy one permanently in South Korea. ;)
 
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Looks like many are ignorant about the capabilities of latest American systems for tackling ballistic missiles and similar threats. THAAD have excellent testing record (believed to be the best ABM system of its class and range) and several batteries are ready for deployment in a war. MEADS program is also approaching maturity (recently demonstrated the ability to intercept multiple targets at a time). PAC-3 is considered to be low-tier ABM platform at present (even the inferior PAC-2 system have actual record of intercepting missiles during a war in 2003). An ABM system designed by Boeing have intercepted a long-range missile [deep in the space] in a test in 2014; more tests will be carried out in the near future.

Pakistan cannot ensure MAD with the US on the nuclear front, period.

On the other hand, indigenious Indian ABM program haven't neutered Pakistan's nuclear FSC. It is far from its objectives. This is why India is seeking S-400 systems from Russia.

What you have mentioned is brochure bull$hit and are systems useful against short/medium range ballistic missiles or cruise missiles. Even in this task, this system (specifically PAC) which were considered excellent proved to be essentially failures.
Cruise missile have been intercepted before and shot down, russian PVO operates sizeable numbers of Mig-31s with one main task of detecting and shooting down incoming cruise missiles, and most subsonic cruise missiles if detected can actually be shot down with fighter's gun as well. The issue with cruise missiles is that you need to detect them, and most cruise missile fly at very low altitude while all land based radars have a thing called 'radar horizon' and it will still be not low even if the whole earth was exactly and smoothly flat. Couple it with a composites based cruise missile with a low RCS and it is tough to detect and destroy. There was a reason that Iraqi/serbian radar operators, even of short range point defence systems would quickly shut down their radars after trying to acquire and lock on to allied fighters when those pilots issued dummy magnum calls on open channels. They were not immersed in reading brochures but actually understood the $hit they were against.

Hitting a long range IRBM or ICBM is basically a dream still, S400 and alike systems are strategic defence systems deployed to avoid a surprise strike against very important locations and works well if there are assets in air as well. Against multiple nuclear strikes by ballistic as well as cruise missiles, their chances of success are presently very low.
 
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What you have mentioned is brochure bull$hit and are systems useful against short/medium range ballistic missiles or cruise missiles. Even in this task, this system (specifically PAC) which were considered excellent proved to be essentially failures.
Brochure bull$hit? Why do you think a weapon system is extensively tested before it is considered for induction?

Every weapon system is extensively tested under simulated and real-time conditions to test its capabilities and quality before it is given green signal for induction in the military force.

Here is some brochure bull$shit for you:


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PAC-1 systems failed to intercept any missile during a war [1991] because they were actually (anti-aircraft) SAM systems with premature/theoretical ABM capabilities [They were more like tech-demonstrators in this regard]. The newer PAC-2 systems intercepted scores of missiles during a war [2003] and they restored confidence in the viability of ongoing ABM projects for the world at large. PAC-2 systems are being converted to more capable PAC-3 systems at present.

However, American ABM projects go beyond the scope of PAC platform at present; Americans are developing and fielding a multi-layered ABM defense for its assets in current times. The tiers are as follows:

Low Tier = PAC-3 / Aegis
Mid Tier = THAAD / Aegis / MEADS (for Europe)
High Tier = GBI (for mainland)

All of them are being extensively tested in real-time situations.

Recently, US planned to deploy a THAAD system in South Korea to neuter North Korean strategic threat but China has issued a stern warning to US in this regard. THAAD is so good that it spooks even major powers like China and Russia.

Cruise missile have been intercepted before and shot down, russian PVO operates sizeable numbers of Mig-31s with one main task of detecting and shooting down incoming cruise missiles, and most subsonic cruise missiles if detected can actually be shot down with fighter's gun as well. The issue with cruise missiles is that you need to detect them, and most cruise missile fly at very low altitude while all land based radars have a thing called 'radar horizon' and it will still be not low even if the whole earth was exactly and smoothly flat. Couple it with a composites based cruise missile with a low RCS and it is tough to detect and destroy. There was a reason that Iraqi/serbian radar operators, even of short range point defence systems would quickly shut down their radars after trying to acquire and lock on to allied fighters when those pilots issued dummy magnum calls on open channels. They were not immersed in reading brochures but actually understood the $hit they were against.
Cruise missiles were difficult to detect years back but not now. Newer (more powerful) radar systems have emerged that can detect even terrain-hugging cruise missiles. This technology have existed even during 1990s (e.g. RSTER radar). Details here: https://www.ll.mit.edu/publications/journal/pdf/vol12_no2/12_2detectcruisemissile.pdf

Such sophisticated radar systems have made it possible to intercept terrain-hugging cruise missiles as apparent from this example: http://breakingdefense.com/2014/08/non-standard-navy-sm-6-kills-cruise-missiles-deep-inland/

Hitting a long range IRBM or ICBM is basically a dream still, S400 and alike systems are strategic defence systems deployed to avoid a surprise strike against very important locations and works well if there are assets in air as well. Against multiple nuclear strikes by ballistic as well as cruise missiles, their chances of success are presently very low.
Really?

Modern ABM systems such as THAAD and GBI can intercept missiles even in space (outside Earth's atmosphere). Here is an example: http://www.boeing.com/features/2014/08/bds-gmd-test-08-19-14.page

The missile intercepted in space during the aforementioned test was Lockheed Martin's 45 foot long LV-2 - a long range Ballistic Missile with maximum range of 5500 km.

However, Americans admit that they have limited-scale deterrence against ICBMs at the moment. But this might change in the future when newer (and more capable) ABM systems will emerge. Laser-based ABM systems are also being considered.

US, Russia, Israel and China would not have pursued ABM projects if they were failures. More nations are contemplating to start similar programs.

S-400 systems would be our worst nightmare, as unfortunate as it sounds; they will disturb the strategic balance in the subcontinent region. Each S-400 system can intercept 16 missiles at a time. Pakistan should do something to stop India's acquisition of S-400 systems. It is foolish to underestimate effectiveness of current-generation American and Russian ABM systems.
 
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Brochure bull$hit? Why do you think a weapon system is extensively tested before it is considered for induction?

Every weapon system is extensively tested under simulated and real-time conditions to test its capabilities and quality before it is given green signal for induction in the military force.

Here is some brochure bull$shit for you:

---

PAC-1 systems failed to intercept any missile during a war [1991] because they were actually (anti-aircraft) SAM systems with premature/theoretical ABM capabilities [They were more like tech-demonstrators in this regard]. The newer PAC-2 systems intercepted scores of missiles during a war [2003] and they restored confidence in the viability of ongoing ABM projects for the world at large. PAC-2 systems are being converted to more capable PAC-3 systems at present.

However, American ABM projects go beyond the scope of PAC platform at present; Americans are developing and fielding a multi-layered ABM defense for its assets in current times. The tiers are as follows:

Low Tier = PAC-3 / Aegis
Mid Tier = THAAD / Aegis / MEADS (for Europe)
High Tier = GBI (for mainland)

All of them are being extensively tested in real-time situations.

Recently, US planned to deploy a THAAD system in South Korea to neuter North Korean strategic threat but China has issued a stern warning to US in this regard. THAAD is so good that it spooks even major powers like China and Russia.


Cruise missiles were difficult to detect years back but not now. Newer (more powerful) radar systems have emerged that can detect even terrain-hugging cruise missiles. This technology have existed even during 1990s (e.g. RSTER radar). Details here:

Such sophisticated radar systems have made it possible to intercept terrain-hugging cruise missiles as apparent from this example:


Really?

Modern ABM systems such as THAAD and GBI can intercept missiles even in space (outside Earth's atmosphere). Here is an example:

The missile intercepted in space during the aforementioned test was Lockheed Martin's 45 foot long LV-2 - a long range Ballistic Missile with maximum range of 5500 km.

However, Americans admit that they have limited-scale deterrence against ICBMs at the moment. But this might change in the future when newer (and more capable) ABM systems will emerge. Laser-based ABM systems are also being considered.

US, Russia, Israel and China would not have pursued ABM projects if they were failures. More nations are contemplating to start similar programs.

S-400 systems would be our worst nightmare, as unfortunate as it sounds; they will disturb the strategic balance in the subcontinent region. Each S-400 system can intercept 16 missiles at a time. Pakistan should do something to stop India's acquisition of S-400 systems. It is foolish to underestimate effectiveness of current-generation American and Russian ABM systems.

Again a lot of brochure bull$hit..

In general, the issue with present ABM systems is that they cannot yet hit with a kill vehicle in the boost phase and especially in a re-entry phase of true IRBMs/ICBMs, the speed of missile or re-entry vehicle is such (in 4-7 km/s) that it is not possible to successfully calculate a collision with a kinetic kill vehicle. Now no doubt newer, better performing ABMs will get developed and fielded but here are some of the problems:

1. Presently they cannot hit already deployed systems, they first need to achieve this.
2. Now that they are getting fielded, all parties have already started or will start taking simple counter-measures, such as using flatter trajectories, or change in path during boost phase, or giving re-entry vehicle slight manoeuvring after re-entry, using MIRVs, using decoys and objects to clutter up, for longer ranges entering into orbits and leaving them. These actually are things which even future ABM project will find very hard to solve.
3. Cost of ABM rounds is equivalent to cost of (actually ICBMs) of ballistic missiles they are going to shoot down. Ballistic missiles can be easily targeted/re-targeted for many locations but ABMs have a fixed range to operate in. This entails deploying a far larger number of ABM rounds to have sufficient coverage for all targets.
4. Even for SRBMS, no ABM system yet boast of a 100% kill ratios which means some will get missed. For IRBMS/ICBMs it is even more harder, I do not think that any specific data exists based on tests. But the problem is even one hit will be enough.

I am not saying that s 400 is not a cause of concern but saying that this will change the 'strategic balance' is an over-statement. Indian efforts to induct earlier S300 and now s400 have been known for some time, also I am not asking to under-estimate their significance. I do not think that those at the helm of affairs have not taken a note and have not started taking actions e.g. try looking for news in the recent past about US being concerned about the size of fissile material stockpile, of reports about it being fifth or sixth largest, about more ready devices etc.
 
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Even if some fielded 1000 interceptors with 100% accuracy ...u need 10001 aggressors to get through and 1100 for wipe out...

Now factor in mirv and decoys and you have your answere...

An missile defence shield will only prompt other side to launch first and launch massive...vitualy guarenteing destructiom
 
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All wars are suicidal rather than theoretical..it basically depends on taking risk..and marching forward...look at how Hitler defeated french and british defenses around europe and forced them into retreat..

Even if some fielded 1000 interceptors with 100% accuracy ...u need 10001 aggressors to get through and 1100 for wipe out...

Now factor in mirv and decoys and you have your answere...

An missile defence shield will only prompt other side to launch first and launch massive...vitualy guarenteing destructiom

ABM system can be fooled by launching aluminum powder clouds.
Basically aluminum powder mixed with liquid nitrogen..causes frozen clouds to form appearing as metal to the radar..
 
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see, this is the malady of Pakistan. Very typical. You probably didn't mean it deliberately that way, just conditioned to put things in a way that shirks and takes no responsibility.

Who is sabotaging Pakistan's economy? It is the Pakistanis. Hence shambles of an economy.
Who proliferated? Pakistanis. Hence the mantle of irresponsible nation.
Who double dealt on WoT? Pakistanis. Hence the infamy of untrustworthy country.
For god's sake even your hero's cheat without brains! can you forget Shahid Afridi getting caught biting the ball or trampling the pitch, getting caught and later sobbing he couldn't take Pakistan losing?

Amigo, Pakistanis have under-estimated their own capabilities so much and become so insecure that they themselves believe that that the only way they can survive is lying and cheating - whether in the cricket pitch or in military matters or economic or political.

You guys need a Adi Shankara or Mahatma Gandhi to rebuild the soul of your nation and people!

Lol. thanks for your sympathy. what did india learnt from Adi and Ghandhi that you think pak should learn from them ?

Pak was good when it was usa buddy fighitng for usa in Afghanistan. but after ?
India is usa buddy getting ready to confront china. but after ? (worst than pak.)

it is an insult to Adi and Ghandi if india of today is attributed to them.

- India build nuclear bombs
- India recognized palestine occupiers
- india provided logitics support to usa during Iraq aggression,
- india provided technical support to Saddam during iran aggression,
- India provided support to saddam in acquiring chemcial weapons
- India having secret alliance with wahabi arabia, israel and usa
- India conspiring to destroy its neighbour.
- India conspiring and sacrificing its high profile spy and its pm getting the highest wahabi medal in return to keep Iran away from pak.
etc etc

Adi or Ghandhi would have never allowed india to have done this all.

India is only having its hay days and can assemble rovers to send to moon and mars till china is taken care. global manipulators will keep only smaller countries in future.

everyone knows that things can fix if Leaders like Imam Khomeini, Dr. Iqbal, MA Jinnah, Adi and Ghandhi are adhere to.

rest what is said by the poster is his own views and frankly most people think like labourers. rent out army give bases to foreigners and get money in return and 200 million nation will become rich and safe. it is hilarious. :lol:
 
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Again a lot of brochure bull$hit..
Per your logic, every new weapon system is brochure bull$hit. :rolleyes:

May I ask what is the credibility of JF-17 Thunder in air-to-air engagements? Do you think that it is brochure bull$shit in this spectrum so far?

The purpose of extensively testing a weapon system is to make sure that its marketed capabilities are 'authentic' before it can be considered for purchase.

In general, the issue with present ABM systems is that they cannot yet hit with a kill vehicle in the boost phase and especially in a re-entry phase of true IRBMs/ICBMs, the speed of missile or re-entry vehicle is such (in 4-7 km/s) that it is not possible to successfully calculate a collision with a kinetic kill vehicle.
Technological capability to intercept a missile during the boost phase of its flight [exists] at present (this capability was tested in 2007 and results were promising). However, intercepting a ballistic missile at this stage [from the ground or sea] is not feasible in every contingency due to shortage of time (1 - 5 minute window for intercepting a target on average) and situation on the ground (proximity of an ABM system to the launch site of a ballistic missile); unless an ABM system is located near the launch site of a ballistic missile (like 100 or 150 km away), it may not be feasible to intercept it at this stage. In a war-like situation, ABM systems on the ground or sea are not necessarily deployed on the front-lines. This is where airborne ABM platforms come into the picture; they are relatively safer to use then ABM platforms on the ground for the said purpose.

It is difficult to intercept a missile at re-entry phase too due to shortage of time once again (1 - 2 minute window for intercepting a target on average) and great speeds. However, you are quoting the re-entry speed range of ICBMs and assuming that smaller ballistic missiles have similar re-entry speeds which is not true (ICBM attain superior speeds then IRBM/MRBM/SRBM due to relatively higher number of stages/superior boosters involved in propelling them to vast distances).

Therefore, midcourse intercepts have greatest appeal at present. Midcourse phase represents longest flight-path of a ballistic missile and it provides ample window to an ABM system to intercept it at this stage.

Now, the purpose of a multi-layered ABM deterrence is to make it possible for ABM platforms to work in conjunction (share data) and intercept targets in more situations then a single platform could unilaterally manage. The American ABM projects are moving towards this direction at present. Read this: http://www.sldinfo.com/u-s-missile-defense-takes-big-step-forward-with-successful-tests/

From the aforementioned link:

After separating from the booster rocket at a speed of over Mach 20, the unarmed kill vehicle homed in on the target, then flying at about 4 miles per second, using its heat signature and destroyed the target through the kinetic energy released by the impact of the collision in a “hit-to-kill” operation.

1. Presently they cannot hit already deployed systems, they first need to achieve this.
Are you serious?

Lockheed Martin's LV-2 ballistic missile (intercepted during a test in 2014; see the link above) is superior to many ballistic missiles that are deployed around the world with the exception of current-generation ICBMs. In-fact, LV-2 can be converted into a real weapon for use in a war on moments notice; it is a finished product.

Americans also have history of smuggling and using ballistic missiles (of Russian and Chinese origin) to use in testing procedures.

2. Now that they are getting fielded, all parties have already started or will start taking simple counter-measures, such as using flatter trajectories, or change in path during boost phase, or giving re-entry vehicle slight manoeuvring after re-entry, using MIRVs, using decoys and objects to clutter up, for longer ranges entering into orbits and leaving them. These actually are things which even future ABM project will find very hard to solve.
Countermeasures are no longer difficult to defeat contrary to the popular belief. Even decoys cannot fool state-of-the-art tracking systems. For example:

Terminal phase is the last one or two minutes of ICBM flight. The warhead, along with any decoys or chaff, reenters the atmosphere. Aerodynamic drag then produces dramatically differing behavior for light as opposed to heavy objects. Decoys decelerate significantly and may burn up, but the warhead does neither. Thus at re-entry the defense can discriminate the warhead unambiguously. (Courtesy FAS)

My point is that there are loopholes in countermeasures as well that can be exploited with careful deliberations.

3. Cost of ABM rounds is equivalent to cost of (actually ICBMs) of ballistic missiles they are going to shoot down. Ballistic missiles can be easily targeted/re-targeted for many locations but ABMs have a fixed range to operate in. This entails deploying a far larger number of ABM rounds to have sufficient coverage for all targets.
Cost is not much of a concern to countries like US, Russia and China. Even Israel is not deterred by costs of developing an ABM capability. If a country has strong economy, it can afford such projects.

Multi-layered ABM deterrence addresses the issue of fixed-range(s) or shortcomings of a single ABM system.

The effectiveness of ABM platform will depend upon its complexity and capabilities of an enemy state it is up against. With good homework, Americans can neuter the threat of Pakistani nuclear strike capabilities but India is far from this objective at the moment.

4. Even for SRBMS, no ABM system yet boast of a 100% kill ratios which means some will get missed. For IRBMS/ICBMs it is even more harder, I do not think that any specific data exists based on tests. But the problem is even one hit will be enough.
THAAD have 100% intercept success rate so far.

I am not saying that s 400 is not a cause of concern but saying that this will change the 'strategic balance' is an over-statement. Indian efforts to induct earlier S300 and now s400 have been known for some time, also I am not asking to under-estimate their significance. I do not think that those at the helm of affairs have not taken a note and have not started taking actions e.g. try looking for news in the recent past about US being concerned about the size of fissile material stockpile, of reports about it being fifth or sixth largest, about more ready devices etc.
I respectfully disagree! S-400 systems will significantly reduce the chances of Pakistani ballistic missiles to reach important targets in India in case of a full-scale nuclear conflict (god forbid). A single S-400 system can intercept up to 16 targets at a time and India is considering 5 systems for induction in total. If the deal bores fruit and those systems are inducted, then we will have to fire multiple salvos to make sure that a single target (of great importance) is hit and this will deplete our already limited inventory much faster. In this manner, India will be able to minimize damage to its assets in its territory. Indians, on the other hand, wouldn't have to worry about such constraints while targeting Pakistan.

Do you think that we have a huge inventory of Shaheen series ballistic missiles at present? You would be terribly wrong then.
 
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