Pakistan in talks for 4 Ada Class Corvettes, T-129 Helicopters & modernization of agosta fleet

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Turkey's Minister of National Defence Nurettin Canikli has said that the last stage of negotiations for the sale of four MILGEM corvettes to a country has been reached.

Pakistan has aspired to equip the MILGEMs with domestic weapons and radar-like systems.

https://www.yenisafak.com/gundem/milgemde-5-milyar-dolarlik-ihracat-3356070

IMO we're not going to get full confirmation of the MILGEM or the T129 until we see them in the MoDP report (e.g. that's when the Chinese submarines were confirmed).

 

[khanasifm]

CONSTRUCTION MORE

For a long time I want to buy 4 pieces MİLGEM Pakistan and Turkey were conducted negotiations in this regard. Canikli also announced that the construction of the six, seven and eight ships in the MILGEM project will begin in the coming days. Providing information on the National Ship (MILGEM) Project, Canikli said that four of the domestic design vessels have now been pooled and that the construction of the fifth one is ongoing. Canikli said, "The construction of the six, seven and eight ships in MILGEM will also begin in the coming days."

 

[khanasifm]

THE LARGEST DEFENSE EXPORT

Stressing that exporters Canikli become a country of Turkey's defense industry, "we can produce turnkey MİLGEM the world in many countries. We supply all of them, including all weapons systems and command control software, except a few, with domestic and national facilities, and sell them on turnkey basis. It provides both a serious income and a serious financing infrastructure for the development of new products, "he said. MİLGEM on the country name Canikli pointing to a big export contracts without, "Now we have our a country negotiations, came the final stage. 4 turnkey MİLGEM Corvette production and sales. When God willing take place in Turkey will be the largest defense product exports on a single item. Price, Turkey's total exports of agricultural products is equivalent to almost 25 percent, "he said. Given the money denominated by Canikli, the income from the sale of MILGEM corresponds to a figure of approximately $ 5 billion. It is stated that Pakistan is the biggest defense product exports abroad. The negotiations were being carried out for the sale of 4 MILGEMS to Pakistan. The size of the figure also indicates that Pakistan has aspired to MILGEMs equipped with domestic weapons and radar-like systems. At the same time, we signed a contract month for the sale of 30 ATAK helicopters to Pakistan
https://translate.google.com/m/tran...ı açıkladı. Heyecan golle başladı! Heyecan go

 

[Tank131]

The way its tranlating, it sounds like the deal is $5bln, but i think that is their agricultural export meaning $1.2bln for 4 ships. That is $300 million per ship. Frankly, short of these being I-class or LF-2400 (which they wont be... Will be standard Ada), PN should have gotten 4 more Type 054A instead. Better weapons, bigger ship, only $25M per ship.

 

[araz]

The way its tranlating, it sounds like the deal is $5bln, but i think that is their agricultural export meaning $1.2bln for 4 ships. That is $300 million per ship. Frankly, short of these being I-class or LF-2400 (which they wont be... Will be standard Ada), PN should have gotten 4 more Type 054A instead. Better weapons, bigger ship, only $25M per ship.

If the price is corect I would agree. However let us see how this transpires and what the specs are. The news filtering down suggest that because of local weapons the platform cost will go down to 250 million per unit making this a billion dollar deal. Given that they will have to be kitted out locally, the cost will spiral up so it all depends on what is acquired. This would be a departure from PNs usual practice in view of @bilal khan 777s earlier post. I suspect if we go for Chinese weapons, to ease complexities we will adopt a Chinese Radar as well along with weaponry.
A

 

[Tank131]

Beyond the weapona which will be sourced indigenously (and likely from china in the case of ciws), what kind of radar are they talking about which will be indigenous?

 

[Aamir Hussain]

This was posted by me in Type 54A acquisition thred. Reproducing with some additions that tries to answer some of the questions raised in this thread--what we are getting or can get


WEAPONS:
Gun 1 x 76mm/62cal OTO Melara Super Rapid:
Main gun Already ordered from Italy by PN for ADA
2 x 12.7mm Aselsan (STAMPS):
Turkish Mfg. so no issues in getting that.
AAW RIM 116 RAM:
Obviously we are not getting this. Maybe use Chinese FT 3000 need to ingrate this with sensors.
AShM 8 x RGM-84L Harpoon II:
We already have them But might not opt for them and look for Harbah to be integrated.
ASW 2 x Mk32 324mm torp. launchers for Mk46/Mk54 ASW torps.:
Use Chinese YU-7 which are eqvl. to Mk46 Mod 2
S-70B Seahawk helicopter can carry AGM-119 Penguin Mk2 AShM, AGM-114 Hellfire/UMTAS missiles, & Mk46/Mk54 ASW torps:
Need to find a replacement. Z9 is an option or go for Z-20 (Scale down BlackHawk) most probably China is looking for LAMP's type of capability in it. On board Helo is a great force multiplier for OTH targeting, and is a headache for submarines which then has to look out for a ship borne and Airborne threat simultaneously.

SENSOR SUIT:
Sensors Thales SMART-S Mk2 3D multi-beam S-band radar:
Mfg. locally by Aselsan
Thales STING-EO Mk2 I/K-band:
FCS (radar and electro-optic) French not an issue
Sperry Marine VisionMaster FT S-band navigation radar:
US can be a problem but since it not an offensive kit, it can be procured.
Aselsan ALPER X-band radar:
Turkish Not an issue
Aselsan ASELFLIR-300T:
Advanced targeting system Turkish not an issue

COUNTERMEASURES:
Counter Measures Aselsan Laser Warning Receiver (LIAS):
Turkish not an issue
Aselsan ARES-2N (ESM):
Turkish not an issue
BAE Mk36 (SRBOC) chaff and decoy system:
UK Defensive Syst. Procurement will not be an issue
Ultra Electronics Sea Sentor Surface Ship Torp. Defense:
US Defensive Syst. Can be purchased since US has not denied GoP direct cash sales.
Aselsan HIZIR torpedo countermeasure system:
Turkish origin not an issue.

OTHER SYSTEMS:
Havelsan GENESIS combat management system (CMS):
Turkish origin. We have it for FFG7
Yaltes UNIMACS 3000 integrated control monitoring system:
Turkish not a issue
OSI Geospatial digital chart integrated nav. system:
Canadian defensive in nature so should not be an issue
Aselsan X-band SATCOM terminals:
Turkish not an issue

furthermore the reason we are not getting the VLS is because Turkey cant sell Evolved Sea Sparrow to a Non NATO customer. And the ADA VLS is built around it. I think the sensors/radars, power plant, combat management systems, ASW Torps, main and secondary guns, decoy/countermeasure systems will be of Turkish or Western origin. That leaves AA, AShM, ASW, Helo systems. FM 3000/Harbah/YU-7/Z9C or Z-20 is my guess for replacement. Harbah would OTH support.

The main issue would be the integration of the systems with sensor and subsystems.

If the price is corect I would agree. However let us see how this transpires and what the specs are. The news filtering down suggest that because of local weapons the platform cost will go down to 250 million per unit making this a billion dollar deal. Given that they will have to be kitted out locally, the cost will spiral up so it all depends on what is acquired. This would be a departjre from PNs usual practice in view of @bilal khan 777s earlier post. I suspect if we go for Chinese weapons, to ease complexities we will adopt a Chinese Radar as well along with weaponry.
A

I think the integration will be done by the Mfg. PN is not good at this as pointed out by Bilal Khan777. Furthermore, Chinese CMS and Radar are generally based upon French systems and Aselsan's systems are themselves based upon some French and American systems.

 

[araz]

This was posted by me in Type 54A acquisition thred. Reproducing with some additions that tries to answer some of the questions raised in this thread--what we are getting or can get


WEAPONS:
Gun 1 x 76mm/62cal OTO Melara Super Rapid:
Main gun Already ordered from Italy by PN for ADA
2 x 12.7mm Aselsan (STAMPS):
Turkish Mfg. so no issues in getting that.
AAW RIM 116 RAM:
Obviously we are not getting this. Maybe use Chinese FT 3000 need to ingrate this with sensors.
AShM 8 x RGM-84L Harpoon II:
We already have them But might not opt for them and look for Harbah to be integrated.
ASW 2 x Mk32 324mm torp. launchers for Mk46/Mk54 ASW torps.:
Use Chinese YU-7 which are eqvl. to Mk46 Mod 2
S-70B Seahawk helicopter can carry AGM-119 Penguin Mk2 AShM, AGM-114 Hellfire/UMTAS missiles, & Mk46/Mk54 ASW torps:
Need to find a replacement. Z9 is an option or go for Z-20 (Scale down BlackHawk) most probably China is looking for LAMP's type of capability in it. On board Helo is a great force multiplier for OTH targeting, and is a headache for submarines which then has to look out for a ship borne and Airborne threat simultaneously.

SENSOR SUIT:
Sensors Thales SMART-S Mk2 3D multi-beam S-band radar:
Mfg. locally by Aselsan
Thales STING-EO Mk2 I/K-band:
FCS (radar and electro-optic) French not an issue
Sperry Marine VisionMaster FT S-band navigation radar:
US can be a problem but since it not an offensive kit, it can be procured.
Aselsan ALPER X-band radar:
Turkish Not an issue
Aselsan ASELFLIR-300T:
Advanced targeting system Turkish not an issue

COUNTERMEASURES:
Counter Measures Aselsan Laser Warning Receiver (LIAS):
Turkish not an issue
Aselsan ARES-2N (ESM):
Turkish not an issue
BAE Mk36 (SRBOC) chaff and decoy system:
UK Defensive Syst. Procurement will not be an issue
Ultra Electronics Sea Sentor Surface Ship Torp. Defense:
US Defensive Syst. Can be purchased since US has not denied GoP direct cash sales.
Aselsan HIZIR torpedo countermeasure system:
Turkish origin not an issue.

OTHER SYSTEMS:
Havelsan GENESIS combat management system (CMS):
Turkish origin. We have it for FFG7
Yaltes UNIMACS 3000 integrated control monitoring system:
Turkish not a issue
OSI Geospatial digital chart integrated nav. system:
Canadian defensive in nature so should not be an issue
Aselsan X-band SATCOM terminals:
Turkish not an issue

furthermore the reason we are not getting the VLS is because Turkey cant sell Evolved Sea Sparrow to a Non NATO customer. And the ADA VLS is built around it. I think the sensors/radars, power plant, combat management systems, ASW Torps, main and secondary guns, decoy/countermeasure systems will be of Turkish or Western origin. That leaves AA, AShM, ASW, Helo systems. FM 3000/Harbah/YU-7/Z9C or Z-20 is my guess for replacement. Harbah would OTH support.

The main issue would be the integration of the systems with sensor and subsystems.




I think the integration will be done by the Mfg. PN is not good at this as pointed out by Bilal Khan777. Furthermore, Chinese CMS and Radar are generally based upon French systems and Aselsan's systems are themselves based upon some French and American systems.

Thank you. A great post as always. It is interesting to compare the air force vs the Navy's experience with integration of technologies crom multiple vendors. It sesms to me the smaller number of systems gives one less opportunities to integrate diverse origin systems. I guess the answer lies in joining/combining/centralising resources from variojs fields fo achieve an objective. Perhaps as a part of the aviation industry?
Any thoughts?
A

 

[Aamir Hussain]

Thank you. A great post as always. It is interesting to compare the air force vs the Navy's experience with integration of technologies crom multiple vendors. It sesms to me the smaller number of systems gives one less opportunities to integrate diverse origin systems. I guess the answer lies in joining/combining/centralising resources from variojs fields fo achieve an objective. Perhaps as a part of the aviation industry?
Any thoughts?
A

Thank you Araz, as always you are gracious in your praise. Yes you are right, for example use of AA missiles form the basis of Sea Sparrow, Babur LACM into Harbah AShM and many more subsystems.

Pakistan should look towards identifying system that have cross uses and look for procurement and then licensed production...this is what the Chinese did... they took it one step further by reverse engineering both the French and Russian systems Land Based Crotale to Navalzed versions including their targeting radars etc. Same with the Russian systems. The Turks used their elctro optical/FLIR system developed for their Helos on board their ADA!

However, this needs coherent centralized defense weapons development program. Chinese have pulled this off very well. We can use Turkish, Chinese, Italian and French systems to achieve this goal since we have access to their systems. We have started to do this with Chinese systems with their help.

 

[RIP Pak LAW]

Typical Zarvan topic .. Posting stuff without any official confirmation. Less professionalism more fan boy stuff.

 

[araz]

Typical Zarvan topic .. Posting stuff without any official confirmation. Less professionalism more fan boy stuff.

Perhaps you want to join in the debate with a more positive comment. Most defence related fora are conjectures rather than firm opinions. By the way people change their names so often I lose track of who is who. I have not come across you so perhaps a hint of your previous name if any would be useful.
Regards
A

 

[RIP Pak LAW]

Perhaps you want to join in the debate with a more positive comment. Most defence related fora are conjectures rather than firm opinions. By the way people change their names so often I lose track of who is who. I have not come across you so perhaps a hint of your previous name if any would be useful.
Regards
A

I was just teasing Zarvan and his tall claims from Su 35 to this. Perhaps he needs to wait for some credible confirmation before coming up with such topic headlines. There is no such official news which says that Pakistan has indeed signed the deal yet.

 

[Aamir Hussain]

Sir I was just wondering if we got a heads up for ordering the first 2 Type 54A's? We all are jumping with joy on the signing of the second batch of Type 54A's!

As I have posted earlier, orders for some major subsystems have already been placed back in 2017 for ADA, Main gun, and power plant both MTU & LM offerings were given and posted by SIPRI. To me it seems a done deal. PN does not have money to throw around.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

S-70B Seahawk helicopter can carry AGM-119 Penguin Mk2 AShM, AGM-114 Hellfire/UMTAS missiles, & Mk46/Mk54 ASW torps:
Need to find a replacement. Z9 is an option or go for Z-20 (Scale down BlackHawk) most probably China is looking for LAMP's type of capability in it. On board Helo is a great force multiplier for OTH targeting, and is a headache for submarines which then has to look out for a ship borne and Airborne threat simultaneously.

Hi
I was thinking PN would rather go with Sea King.

 

[Aamir Hussain]

Hi
I was thinking PN would rather go with Sea King.

It is a potent helo but old and not many flying hours left on the platform. Both are of the same weight 22K lbs versus 21K Lbs and 17.6 Ft. versus 16.10 Ft. height and 55 Ft. length versus 64 Ft. length, so fitting in the hanger would not be problem nor the helipad anchoring harness would be an issue.

And not sure of the data link support from the ADA