Pakistan helped US get Osama, insists Hersh

[v9s]

This is old news. Hersh's account is bullshit.

A high-profile intelligence officer (who was privy to the developments of the Operation Neptune Spear) debunked Hersh's account: http://www.wsj.com/articles/separating-fact-from-seymour-hershs-fiction-about-bin-laden-1431714139

Another: http://www.vox.com/2015/5/11/8584473/seymour-hersh-osama-bin-laden

Moreover, people should read the Abbottabad Commission Report. It is the most comprehensive and informative report about the event in question and contains details that you won't find on the web. I have read it.

Operation Neptune Spear was a strictly CIA-led unilateral COIN operation inside Pakistan, and Pakistan Army have no hand in it.


The Americans prepared for this raid beforehand and it was carried out in the cover of darkness. There is also a massive asymmetry between the technological capabilities of the two countries.

If you think that Pakistani security apparatus is infallible, you are deluding yourself.

Yes. You read the publicly available reports and conclude Hersh's account is hearsay. Hats off to you.

 

[LeGenD]

Yes. You read the publicly available reports and conclude Hersh's account is hearsay. Hats off to you.

Hersh is a journalist, not an insider. You take claims of insiders seriously, not some journalist.

Moreover, Abbottabad Commission Report was not officially made public in Pakistan. Al-Jazeera leaked it on the web.

 

[v9s]

My friend, warfare history is not your cup of tea. Your remarks prove it.

US have fought many wars in its history; some were won and a few were lost. But each war granted invaluable experience and contributed to the evolution of US military capability and doctrines with passage of time.

Modern wars can be extremely lengthy affairs and may comprise of a large number of military operations. Therefore, it will take a long time to create a list of every military operation that was a success story.

Nobody says that Operation Neptune Spear was an 'easy' matter. It is arguably one of the most daring and challenging COIN operations ever conducted inside an hostile territory. It is not something that every country can pull off against Pakistan. Not even India.

So you mean to say that experience in a domain makes you learn from your mistakes and improve strategy?
And that war is more complex than 2 groups of people fighting on an open field, as depicted in movies?

Thank you for opening our eyes! What would we do without this revelation you've bestowed upon us!

You need to get out of the hubris you're in.

 

[LeGenD]

I am not claiming to be an expert in modern warfare, just a little curious about the history of American warfare and that is how come the only successful military operation US ever conducted was inside Pakistan, a country whose military brass conducts pentagon trips more than the trips inside their own territory.

Operation Neptune Spear is nothing in comparison to the scale of some successful American military operations throughout history.

Some examples of successful military operations:

1. Operation Overlord (WW2 - 1944)
2. Operation White Wing (Vietnam - 1966)
3. Operation Praying Mantis (Iran - 1988)
4. Operation Just Cause (Panama - 1989)
5. Operation Desert Storm (Persian Gulf War - 1991)
6. Operation Deliberate Force (Bosnia - 1995)
7. Operation Enduring Freedom (Afghanistan - 2001)
8. Operation Iraqi Freedom (Iraq - 2003)
9. Operation Phantom Fury (Iraq - 2004)

There are many more but the discussion would spiral in a different direction.

 

[v9s]

Hersh is a journalist, not an insider. You take claims of insiders seriously, not some journalist.

As a journalist, and a distinguished one at that, he has more inside information than you could ever get by scouring the internet. You are a nobody, and the insider has been instructed to say that to the public. Do you seriously expect that the insider will go against the story that the establishment has crafted?

Moreover, Abbottabad Commission Report was not officially made public in Pakistan. Al-Jazeera leaked it on the web.

And hence, now it's public.

 

[xyxmt]

Who told you that Operation Neptune Spear was the 'only' successful US military operation in history?

my apologies, its the 2nd successfull one after operation Saving private Ryan

 

[Hamza913]

Without Pakistan knowledge, it could not have happened.

Fair enough but isnt it our policy failure that while we knew where he was and in fact assisted US in getting him, we get all criticism for 'supporting' terror?

Pakistan's role was also acknowledged by Obama himself when he announced OBL killing in a live speech.

All our criticism is by the public and India. Just about every important politician praises Pakistan's anti terror efforts. Kinda part of the bargain. In my opinion, we should have just killed Bin Laden and hid his body somewhere.

Come to think of it, maybe we did but we got caught in the act by the CIA. So the US and Pakistan made this story instead. Makes America seem more competent and allows militants to not want to destroy Pakistan.

 

[LeGenD]

As a journalist, and a distinguished one at that, he has more inside information than you could ever get by scouring the internet. You are a nobody, and the insider has been instructed to say that to the public. Do you seriously expect that the insider will go against the story that the establishment has crafted?

My advice to you: don't underestimate the intellect and reach of people in the internet just because you don't know them in person or they don't get much publicity. I am not a "nobody."

Hersh might be a distinguished journalist but he was not an insider and neither was he privy to information that insiders would have. An insider have debunked Hersh's nonsense and I have posted his account here for you to read. You better read it.

And hence, now it's public.

And you should read it.

my apologies, its the 2nd successfull one after operation Saving private Ryan

Saving Private Ryan is a fictional story.

So you mean to say that experience in a domain makes you learn from your mistakes and improve strategy?
And that war is more complex than 2 groups of people fighting on an open field, as depicted in movies?

Thank you for opening our eyes! What would we do without this revelation you've bestowed upon us!

You need to get out of the hubris you're in.

I am in hubris? Seriously?

Those are in hubris who believe in the MYTH of invincibility of Pakistani security apparatus and think that it cannot be breached. That Pakistan is the greatest military power in the world with just 7 billion annual USD defense budget and extremely limited research output. These kind of claims are for public consumption. But smart people know better.

 

[v9s]

My advice to you: don't underestimate the intellect and reach of people in the internet just because you don't know them in person or they don't get much publicity. I am not a "nobody."

I'm not a mind-reader - i'm judging you by the quality of your posts. You might be a somebody, but what you've written is nothing insightful.

Hersh might be a distinguished journalist but he was not an insider and neither was he privy to information that insiders would have. An insider have debunked Hersh's nonsense and I have posted his account here for you to read. You better read it.

Yeah. And he has corroborated what he has said by sourcing his info from people in the know. The insider only did what he was instructed to do - to introduce doubt into accounts contrary to the established one. You were baited - hook, line and sinker.

And you should read it.

I have. It has been quite some time though.

Those are in hubris who believe in the MYTH of invincibility of Pakistani security apparatus and think that it cannot be breached. That Pakistan is the greatest military power in the world with just 7 billion annual USD defense budget and extremely limited research output. These kind of claims are for public consumption. But smart people know better.

I don't believe the claims of invincibility either. Perhaps you didn't get what I was trying to say.

 

[LeGenD]

I'm not a mind-reader - i'm judging you by the quality of your posts. You might be a somebody, but what you've written is nothing insightful.

I suppose that only conspiracy theories will be insightful for you. Typical.

Yeah. And he has corroborated what he has said by sourcing his info from people in the know. The insider only did what he was instructed to do - to introduce doubt into accounts contrary to the established one. You were baited - hook, line and sinker.

And his 'reliable' sources are?

I have. It has been quite some time though.

You learned nothing from it, unfortunately. Your mindset is at fault here.

I don't believe the claims of invincibility either. Perhaps you didn't get what I was trying to say.

Then what is so unbelievable about Operation Neptune Spear?

 

[jhungary]

From a Former Military Intelligence Operator point of view.

There are Pakistani Element involved in Capture/Killing of Osama Bin Laden (Also known as Operation Neptune Spear). The reason behind is this, OBL safe house are located close to the Pakistani Military Academy, which means there are some sort of governmental support in hiding Osama Bin Laden, the only way US Military can locate OBL in such protection is as if someone within Pakistani Side flip and alerted the American about the where about of OBL. This cannot be done by any sort of Intelligence Collection other than HUMINT.

Officially, Pakistani Government did not contribute to Neptune Spear. Given OBL hiding so close to an Pakistani Military Structure (which would be under constant surveillance) which means somebody higher up in the government have to be offering protection, therefore, unless some deal are struck, I cannot see any point where Pakistani Government would offer assistance to the US Military.

US launch Operation Neptune Spear without notifying the Pakistani Government, no indication on whether or not Pakistani Government have any prior knowledge on the operation. The need for US Military to use Stealth modification helicopter suggest they are penetrating the Pakistani Airspace illegally, either they want to avoid confrontation with Pakistani Air Force or alerting OBL of the incoming US operation.

Special Operation like this (Which is a Direct Action) are actually not as hard to carry out, most DA mission conducted in a timely fashion, which basically the receiving end did not have enough time to response before the mission itself is done. This whole mission did not spend more than 34 minutes on the ground (From the insertion to exertion) and the actual assault was carried out in 15 minutes. Unless the Pakistani know what was coming, chances are slim on any way they can intercept this operation. With usually reaction time is anywhere between 30-60 minutes.

 

[xyxmt]

Saving Private Ryan is a fictional story.

oh really!, shows how little you know about US military adventures...the only true operation is a fiction for you, yet an almost fictional Osama operation is a testament to superior US tech.

 

[LeGenD]

oh really!, shows how little you know about US military adventures...the only true operation is a fiction for you, yet an almost fictional Osama operation is a testament to US superior tech.

lol

The movie was inspired by a true event but it is a work of fiction nonetheless.

 

[xyxmt]

lol

The movie was inspired by a true event but it is a work of fiction nonetheless.

no it is not, Sargent Private Matt Damon was rescued heroically by two soldiers who decimated the entire German battalion to bring Sargent Private Matt Damon (code names Ryan), almost the same pattern as of Osama Operation.

 

[LeGenD]

no it is not, Sargent Private Matt Damon was rescued heroically by two soldiers who decimated the entire German battalion to bring Sargent Private Matt Damon (code names Ryan), almost the same pattern as of Osama Operation.

I am not sure if you are being sarcastic or not but I am telling you the truth.

A true event served as the inspiration behind Saving Private Ryan but this movie doesn't depicts the real event or operation. It is a work of fiction.

You should watch Fury. It is very close to real-life experiences of the American soldiers during WW2 inside German territory during 1945.

Operation Neptune Spear was not about confronting Pakistani military; it was a unilateral COIN operation but with the element of subterfuge. As unfortunate as it was, we have to live with it.

The only major firefight between the US and Pakistani troops that I recall is the Salala incident that took place months after Operation Neptune Spear.