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Pakistan helped Iraq in defeating IS, says Iraqi envoy

There were many wise people who warned of the consequences of OIF and OEF.
History is filled with warnings that at the time were nothing more than speculations but then became prescient after the fact. Care to study one such example -- WW II ?

But the invasion plans were pushed through nevertheless because of the vested interests of a few.
So trot out the typical conspiracy.

Can you provide a source regarding those negotiations?

Mullah Omar had a lot of other things to do with his meager resources regarding law and order and stability in a country that was involved in a war/civil war for over a decade instead of doing the bidding of others, especially those who neither recognized his rule nor helped his poor country but instead imposed sanctions.

The demand for evidence was not a stalling tactic and later on, the Taliban were on the verge of taking action against Bin Laden without evidence (Coming from General Mahmud who negotiated with Mullah Omar in Kandahar and the Shura in Kabul) but the US had another purpose for the invasion which was regime change.
You must be joking... You cannot see how you contradicted yourself ? How can the Taliban demand for evidence if there were no negotiations ? :disagree:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/arch...429-b8f3-9896951fc444/?utm_term=.9202ff0600c1
Over three years and on as many continents, U.S. officials met in public and secret at least 20 times with Taliban representatives to discuss ways the regime could bring suspected terrorist Osama bin Laden to justice.
Please do not insult everyone's intelligence by arguing that those negotiations were with representatives instead of Omar himself.

And yes, the demand for evidence was a stalling tactic. Osama bin Laden married who ?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2001/sep/23/terrorism.afghanistan
A close friend of Osama bin Laden, Mullah Omar is believed to have married one of his daughters and bin Laden may have married one of Mullah Omar's daughters but the Taliban have always denied this.
All the Taliban had to do was evict Osama bin Laden. Omar did not have to LITERALLY hand bin Laden over, as in handcuffed and transferred in the dead of night like how the movies would have done it. Just evict Osama bin Laden, shut down Al Qaeda's bases as our satellites can monitor and confirmed, and let US know where/when that eviction took place. We can do the rest.

So please stop trying to make excuses for the failure and mistake of the Taliban in underestimating what Osama bin Laden would do -- 9/11 -- and our responses -- invade Afghanistan. If we wanted regime change, we could have done it without the need to use Osama bin Laden. There were plenty of reasons other than bin Laden. People often charged that we do 'regime change' just because we do not like someone. We could have done that to the Taliban as well. God and everybody know how atrocious the Taliban are.

And speaking of wise warnings, did anyone in the Taliban warned Mullah Omar about Osama bin Laden's private war against US and those consequences ? Why is it that only US is burdened with being warned and no one else is ? :lol:

You are not living up to your forum handle, buddy.
 
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Hi,

Pakistanis should have had enough time to look inwards---. They knew that the afghan taliban were dumb as a rock and Mullah Umar was an idiot---.

But then the pakistanis were and are not too bright either---. A simpler solution would have been to do an air strike and then drop in a brigade of special forces followed by a division of ground troops from chaman and wiped out Osama Bin Laden and his cohorts---.

Mullah Umar would have hummed and hawed but would have calmed down after awhile---.

But pakistani public and pakistani military generals were blind to what was coming---what would be the consequences of a christian U S military invading muslim AFG and what it held for the future---.

When a nation is busy pointing fingers at who did the 9/11 rather than finding ways to defy the monster from striking in the arena---what do you say to the intelligence of that nation---not too many good things---actually nothing good.
 
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There were many wise people who warned of the consequences of OIF and OEF. But the invasion plans were pushed through nevertheless because of the vested interests of a few.
And what could a sanction ridden country barely having a Navy and Airforce do to anyone is beyond comprehension. Even if it were a threat to other Gulf countries or Israel, the US already had military bases in the region and the regional armies were stronger than they were before.
Attacking a country on mere speculation that it would become powerful in the far future and killing a million human beings in the process is unjustifiable unless you attack that country when it is in the process of becoming a danger...Even in that case, the best course of action is to improve one's own defensive and offensive capabilities to deter the expansionist designs of that country.

P.S we know what was done to Libya.

Can you provide a source regarding those negotiations?

Mullah Omar had a lot of other things to do with his meager resources regarding law and order and stability in a country that was involved in a war/civil war for over a decade instead of doing the bidding of others, especially those who neither recognized his rule nor helped his poor country but instead imposed sanctions.
The demand for evidence was not a stalling tactic and later on, the Taliban were on the verge of taking action against Bin Laden without evidence (Coming from General Mahmud who negotiated with Mullah Omar in Kandahar and the Shura in Kabul) but the US had another purpose for the invasion which was regime change.

Unless those dictators are stooges of the US.

Source for negotiation: Check out Musharraf's Memoirs.
He was personally discussing with Mullah Omar, together with a Saudi prince after the
Embassy attacks, before 9/11.
They demanded that OBL was evicted.
Mullah Omars response: He insulted the Prince.

We have helped refugees from Chile after the Coup, so no there are no exceptions.
European actions in Libya and Bosnia was partly a result of the people of Europe putting pressure on governments.
They were dragging their feet especially in Bosnia, but Madeleine Albright, beeing a victim
af Nazi repression saw to that they did the right thing.
 
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American war-machine is an absolute juggernaut with unparalleled firepower and resources at its disposal. Should it be allowed to do whatever it takes to win in an enemy country - it will without an iota of doubt.
Bro that's exactly what people for centuries have said and thought about so many powerful empires like Egyptian, Roman, Byzantine, Muslim, Ottoman, Mongol, Mughal, British people used to say the same exact words for Wehrmacht (yes it's me who's saying this for Wehrmacht) and RED army where are they now? the thing is atm US army is without a doubt is extremely powerful and the reasons for that is:
1) It hasn't seen an army which can truly challenge it

2) Yes it has technological advantage over rest of the world but it doesn't mean there are aren't armies/countries who can't counter it (Russia and China can) so let's not over glorify them mate their army is also made up of humans not robots time will come when US will go/brought down just like the names mentioned above but "when" and by "whom" is the main question.

P.S before anyone thinks no i am not that typical guy who lives in fantasy world of "Muslims destroying us and israel" i am just stating what history has tells us someone will finish off US just like before with every empire than someone will finish off that empire and the cycle will continue till the judgement day.

@Arsalan @django @Hell hound @Desert Fox @Nilgiri
 
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I think there are many proofs to what i have shared ,Regarding Turkey / Lebanon i give a dam each country has his own objectives ,[/QUOTE]


So you won't address your allies doing the same thing? Lol You won't address all the support Saudi Arabia etc gave to IS?

Your first article simply talks about the detonators ending up in IS hands, it also says that many other countries, including Pakistani allies did the same thing.

The second article simply talks about the spy negotiating and making contacts with the Iraqi government, except at the end where it says at the end that he flew to Damascus to make contact with agencies who had contact with IS, it makes it sound like these agencies were friends with IS but also friends with the spy, which sounds like bullshit. After I looked into it more it simply said he talked to the Syrian Government Intelligence agency during this time.

I won't even bother addressing this source as it is cleary a garbage and unreliable source.

As for this, you've got to be kidding me man. There are more Pakistanis fighting for IS than Indians, and using your logic most countries in the world are funding IS considering they have fighters from all over the world.
 
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Bro that's exactly what people for centuries have said and thought about so many powerful empires like Egyptian, Roman, Byzantine, Muslim, Ottoman, Mongol, Mughal, British people used to say the same exact words for Wehrmacht (yes it's me who's saying this for Wehrmacht) and RED army where are they now? the thing is atm US army is without a doubt is extremely powerful and the reasons for that is:
1) It hasn't seen an army which can truly challenge it

2) Yes it has technological advantage over rest of the world but it doesn't mean there are aren't armies/countries who can't counter it (Russia and China can) so let's not over glorify them mate their army is also made up of humans not robots time will come when US will go/brought down just like the names mentioned above but "when" and by "whom" is the main question.

P.S before anyone thinks no i am not that typical guy who lives in fantasy world of "Muslims destroying us and israel" i am just stating what history has tells us someone will finish off US just like before with every empire than someone will finish off that empire and the cycle will continue till the judgement day.

@Arsalan @django @Hell hound @Desert Fox @Nilgiri
Fully agreed with.

Just to point out one thing, the US have a unique geographical advantage, unless some future technology or major geopolitical event addresses this US will stay in power. But its kind of universal law, what goes up shall come down. America cannot be an exception!
 
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One of the biggest lies is that Osama bin Laden 'worked' for US during the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...inessman-who-recruited-mujahedin-1465715.html

I didn't say OBL work for CIA or US, i just say he was one of the foot soldier in Afghan Jihad backed and controlled by USA ..

It does not matter if Afghanistan was ruled by a government recognized by the international community or not, or if the country was ruled by tribal leaders. The fact is that the UN recognized a political entity called 'Afghanistan' and accorded that country with the minimum of political respect, the most important is the respect of international borders.

What the Geneva Convention did was formalized that understanding of neutral power's responsibility for the modern time, but that understanding came from common sense for as long as warfare existed. Think about it for a moment. Pakistan and India is at war against each other. India uses Tibet to train and create bases there. Tibet (China) is helpless. You think your Pakistan is going to let Tibet off the hook ?

UN recognize a Entity based on border, and how a country been recognized without a proper functioning govt ? and even if they did why on earth someone who does not care for UN actually care Geneva Conventions or its Articles ? you already know USA , Russia or NATO no one gives Hoot for Geneva Conventions when bombing their enemies ..

the problem with you example is that Individual country has not Will not power to attack other country, India is shouting about Azad Kashmir been used for Terror camps but never dared to attack because of Geneva ? Nah brah, they don't attack us because they know what will happen in retaliation ..

Even though Al Qaeda is a transnational organization, it still need the security -- given or not -- of a parcel of land in order to recruit, motivate, train, and disperse its combatants. Going by your logic, since the US is an immigrant country, if you go to war against US, are you going to attack European countries as well since they are the source of our citizens ?

you are comparing a Miscreants Organization or Non State actors to Legal Immigrants , you really think its a valid argument brother ? think it that, way US has ISIS fighters who times to times attack US citizens, there were European citizen fighting in Syria and Iraq attack Asshead and Russian forces , so Russia has right to attack European countries ? who's these non State actors citizen belong ? if US logic is applied on all countries given them enough fire power, the world would end in blink of an eye ..

And that is all we need. That is all ANY country need to be that offended belligerent.

and so USA invaded and Destroy Afghanistan become the cause deaths of half a million Afghans in cross fire ? your really think its Fair ??

That make them covert agents of a foreign power. We retaliate against the country that sent their spies, correct ?

Of course we don't, have you attack Russia when you and the world know they interfere in your Presidential Elections ? you really think US and Russia has no Spy networks in their countries operating ? and time to time these spies got caught , no one attack why ? because the consequences of Attacking US and Russia is not equal to Attack a powerless country like Afghanistan , US can get away with anything because they are powerful and so they bully powerless countries .. that's how it looks like

The demand for evidence was nothing but a stalling tactic and everyone knew it.

If a country have an extradition treaty with US, we would not demand evidence but would simply hand the suspect over. Extradition treaties are not the same.

Take this Canadian example...

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/canadas-extradition-law-a-legal-condundrum

Seeking political asylum is not the same thing. We take political persecution differently than killing someone during a bank robbery.

Of course that treaty allow prisoner exchange , but this means if you don't have a extradition treaty that means you can harbor any terrorist in the world, and they are above the reach of any international law, and that is what US did , they know Afghanistan is weak and can not retaliate and no other regional power has Backing them so US attack and get away with all Human rights violations over there .. isn't that true ?

What is the point here ?

The point is that If US is that Holy as American say they are, they could have taken out OBL without shedding the half a million Afghan blood , you have killed OBL in Pakistan with a Spec ops right ? why American didn't do it when he was in Afghanistan ? why not use the Military might to take out AQ leadership and let the Taliban jump around , what most they can do ? Taliban was struggling to get hold of Kabul , let alone attacking US main-land after US could possibly taken out OBL ..
the point is simple, US wanted to Invade the Afghanistan , and After 9/11 US got World's backing over whatever they want to do with any country they want to crush .. so US is no saint here, they are crushing other countries because they have powerful Army ..

Pakistan must provide evidence to Switzerland that their country is being used in contradiction to Articles 2 thru 5 and allow Switzerland time to correct that error. If the Swiss either refused to comply or incompetent in enforcement, then Pakistan have the right to retaliate against Switzerland anyway you see fit.

OBL was in Pakistan and US taken him out the leader is not attacking US soldiers, but he is giving orders and targets , so the Baluch Terrorist in Switzerland is not running terror camps but they are ordering their foot soldiers to attack civilians in Pakistan .. very similar cases

Al Qaeda attacked US Embassies, and USS Cole way before 9/11 and bragged about it.
Mullah Omar choose to allow them to remain in Afghanistan, creating a legal reason
for the US to attack Afghanistan, within the limits if the Geneva Convention.

As the Taliban did not sign the Geneva Convention, You can argue they do not enjoy the protection of the Geneva Convention.
They can then be legally attacked without a valid reason.

A more conventional view would be that Afghanistan has signed the convention
and the Taliban are bound by that.
The US still has a valid reason.

If Baluch leaders sets up training camps for training troops in Switzerland, then
they are involved as a party.
You still can't nuke them, as that would most likely be considered to be unproportional.
Switzerland are an exceptionslly bad country to attack, because it is surrounded by countries,
which are neutral, and You have no right of fly-over to attack Switzerland.
ICBMs may be yoir only alternative, but without nukes, how effective will they be?

Be aware that the UN is working towards a ban of nuclear weapons.
Once implemented, use of nuclear weapons against a signee nation would most likely be
treated as a Crime against Humanity.
Use against a non-signee (Pakistan, China and India are not planning to sign) would still be legal,
but if a signee country sees fallout from an attack on a non-signee,
It is likely that they can prosecute attackers for Crime against Humanity.

AQ attack US embassies , they are terrorist that is what they do, you don't killed half a million people because of some Terrorist Organization .. in that case Pakistan , KSA , Yemen , Iran , Syria and many other countries must be obliterated by now ..

Switzerland holds Baluch terrorist leaders who give orders to their foot soldiers in Pakistan to Attack Civilians here. same as US killed OBL in Abotabad ..US didn't Pakistan to take action but they acted on their own, and no one talk about nuking Switzerland, i want to go there for my honeymoon :D i am just using the same Logic people here giving to justify attack on Afghanistan or Pakistan against them ..
 
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AQ attack US embassies , they are terrorist that is what they do, you don't killed half a million people because of some Terrorist Organization .. in that case Pakistan , KSA , Yemen , Iran , Syria and many other countries must be obliterated by now ..

Switzerland holds Baluch terrorist leaders who give orders to their foot soldiers in Pakistan to Attack Civilians here. same as US killed OBL in Abotabad ..US didn't Pakistan to take action but they acted on their own, and no one talk about nuking Switzerland, i want to go there for my honeymoon :D i am just using the same Logic people here giving to justify attack on Afghanistan or Pakistan against them ..

Mullah Omar in his stupidity, gave the US a reason to go to war.
He lived to regret it.

The US has in the past informed Afghanistan about operations in advance,
and then the targets suddenly disappear.
Pakistan has proven to be disloyal. No chances were taken in the OBL operation.

The action taking out OBL was formally an act of war, but not targetting pakistani forces.
A country dedicated to fighting terrorism would have jubilated at the demise of OBL.
Instead Pakistan showed its lack of support by arresting people helping finding OBL,
and again showed disloyalty by allowing Chinese to study the downed stealth helicopter.

The US has not killed half a million Afghanis.
The UN reports that the majority of people killed, are killed by the Taliban.
Accusing the US for the atrocities of Muslims is positioning you as a terrorist supporter.

As for Switzerland, you will be able to argue Your position in a court, before
they lock You up and throw away the key.
 
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Mullah Omar in his stupidity, gave the US a reason to go to war.
He lived to regret it.

The US has in the past informed Afghanistan about operations in advance,
and then the targets suddenly disappear.
Pakistan has proven to be disloyal. No chances were taken in the OBL operation.

The action taking out OBL was formally an act of war, but not targetting pakistani forces.
A country dedicated to fighting terrorism would have jubilated at the demise of OBL.
Instead Pakistan showed its lack of support by arresting people helping finding OBL,
and again showed disloyalty by allowing Chinese to study the downed stealth helicopter.

The US has not killed half a million Afghanis.
The UN reports that the majority of people killed, are killed by the Taliban.
Accusing the US for the atrocities of Muslims is positioning you as a terrorist supporter.

As for Switzerland, you will be able to argue Your position in a court, before
they lock You up and throw away the key.

Yeah so a illegitimate leader of Taliban fraction deny US request to hand over a terrorist make US mad so they invade a country and destroy it to the ground ? and who is the terrorist again ?

kid, do you have any idea how many AQ leader are taken out by Pakistan directly or with help of Pakistan ? go and do your homework son .. than we'll talk
so you are saying Pakistan show lack of Support , US operate Shamsi base to drone Taliban from Pakistan, Pakistan give their land for Supply lines, Pakistan enter Tribal Areas to fight Taliban, and we lack of support ? are you high kid ?

of Course US not alone killed half a million Afghani's never claimed so, i say dead in cross fire , Operations , Air raids and fire fights ..
so, if i accuse US for human right crime than i am a terrorist Sympathizer ? :lol: @django @The Sandman @Zibago @Hell hound look guys another title , I hope i earned it :angel:

tell me something when Pakistan resume Hanging terrorist it was European Country named Germany who ask Pakistan to stop that, so by your logic Germany is also a Terrorist country who supports them ?

and, if we ask for a Terrorist to be handed over to us, and in fact why Switzerland give their land to a terrorist who orders to kill civilians means Swiss people are terrorist sympathizer and supporters too ? huh
how old are you boy ? you sound like a teenage , emotional European kid, i encounter many on social media like you
 
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world is not black and white as many people here are assuming each party involved did some wrongs to protect their own interests(still are doing the same) and i think that was wrong as if eradication of terrorism should have given precedence over national interests world wouldn't be in the state it is in today.
@The Sandman @Starlord @A.P. Richelieu
 
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Yeah so a illegitimate leader of Taliban fraction deny US request to hand over a terrorist make US mad so they invade a country and destroy it to the ground ? and who is the terrorist again ?

kid, do you have any idea how many AQ leader are taken out by Pakistan directly or with help of Pakistan ? go and do your homework son .. than we'll talk
so you are saying Pakistan show lack of Support , US operate Shamsi base to drone Taliban from Pakistan, Pakistan give their land for Supply lines, Pakistan enter Tribal Areas to fight Taliban, and we lack of support ? are you high kid ?

of Course US not alone killed half a million Afghani's never claimed so, i say dead in cross fire , Operations , Air raids and fire fights ..
so, if i accuse US for human right crime than i am a terrorist Sympathizer ? :lol: @django @The Sandman @Zibago @Hell hound look guys another title , I hope i earned it :angel:

tell me something when Pakistan resume Hanging terrorist it was European Country named Germany who ask Pakistan to stop that, so by your logic Germany is also a Terrorist country who supports them ?

and, if we ask for a Terrorist to be handed over to us, and in fact why Switzerland give their land to a terrorist who orders to kill civilians means Swiss people are terrorist sympathizer and supporters too ? huh
how old are you boy ? you sound like a teenage , emotional European kid, i encounter many on social media like you

A defacto leader of a country allows enemy troops to operate from within its territory during a war.
That is a violation of the Geneva Convention, and a just cause for war.

Pakistan certainly receives a large amount of money from the US,
and is acting against certain groups, but is far from beeing considered
a true ally and friend by the US, based on their experience with Pakistanis.
There may be Pakistanis which share the same goal, but the US appear to believe there are quite
a lot of rotten apples in the basket, sharing US information with Talibans etc.
That is why Pakistan sees resistance in the Congress,

If You accuse someone without proof, you are a Charlatan.
If you consistently blame one part of the actions of the adversary, what are You but a symphatizer?
It is estimated that the US has killed about 12,000 Afghanis, many of them Taliban.
While numbers may be discussed it is nowhere near 100s of thousands.

Your sloppyness may disappear with age and experience.
Unlike You, I experienced the 1950s...
 
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what goes up shall come down. America cannot be an exception!
Exactly!
so, if i accuse US for human right crime than i am a terrorist Sympathizer ? :lol: @django @The Sandman @Zibago @Hell hound look guys another title , I hope i earned it :angel:
Some people while defending US (and probably in the hatred for Muslims) are just going waaaay to faaar now i hope they realize what they're saying and turn.
world is not black and white as many people here are assuming each party involved did some wrongs to protect their own interests(still are doing the same) and i think that was wrong as if eradication of terrorism should have given precedence over national interests world wouldn't be in the state it is in today.
@The Sandman @Starlord @A.P. Richelieu
Agree but some people really are innocent (or maybe they pretend to be).
 
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A defacto leader of a country allows enemy troops to operate from within its territory during a war.
That is a violation of the Geneva Convention, and a just cause for war.

Geneva , i talk about that with a better member Gambit in same thread , do read my previous post to take reference from ..

Pakistan certainly receives a large amount of money from the US,
and is acting against certain groups, but is far from beeing considered
a true ally and friend by the US, based on their experience with Pakistanis.
There may be Pakistanis which share the same goal, but the US appear to believe there are quite
a lot of rotten apples in the basket, sharing US information with Talibans etc.
That is why Pakistan sees resistance in the Congress,

Just because you are humiliated and have no answer you turned to Aid given by US ? that shows your credibility , you can do better than this ..
trust me the feeling is mutual when it comes to trusting US, in fact no one trust US when it comes truth or fabrications .. TTP and ISIS is growing right under the nose of US in Afghanistan , US funded FSA and Al Nusra in Syria against Asshead , US Funded Mehdi Army in Iraq lead by Muqtadar ( A Shia Fighter ) do you want me to go on ?
what we know that when Pakistan push TTP back to Afghanistan after operations like Rahe Rast , Rahe Nijat , it was US who abandon the posts along Afghan border give all the freedom it require for TTP leaders to settle down, but i guess Freedom is what US is known for is it ? even if it means freedom for Terrorist :)

You really thing any believe Congress except for half wit Americans who think Global warming is Chinese Hoax LOL Good luck with that buddy ..

If You accuse someone without proof, you are a Charlatan.
If you consistently blame one part of the actions of the adversary, what are You but a symphatizer?
It is estimated that the US has killed about 12,000 Afghanis, many of them Taliban.
While numbers may be discussed it is nowhere near 100s of thousands.

Your sloppyness may disappear with age and experience.
Unlike You, I experienced the 1950s...

What prove you want? and ask yourself can you be satisfied with any prove i or anyone else give you ? i doubt that, your mind is already set on something and you wont change no matter what, US intention is very clear in this region even accepted by Americans themselves , but of course When US attack an Allied forces its a mistake, how many Times US forces attack Allies ? you want to google it :)
Libya, Iraq , Somalia , Syria and Afghanistan ? Iraq and their WMD's , arming Shia against the Sunni and when those rebels goes out of hand , so lets label them terrorist and take them out ..
Estimated figures can be wrong or right .. even if your 12K figures are right still worse than 3000 innocent who died in a Terror attack, what you will call those 12K dead Afghans ? Collateral damage ? what happen to Attack on Syrian Army , US and Pakistan Army has get into Clashes on Afghan border , Civilian dead in Iraq Assault , Yemen Raid ? all this a mistake ?

it may disappear but people's ignorant can't disappear even with time , Good luck with that.


and i am still waiting you to address the questions i raised , if you cant do that than please avoid quoting me, i rather debate with Gambit .

Some people while defending US (and probably in the hatred for Muslims) are just going waaaay to faaar now i hope they realize what they're saying and turn.

Shah se zayda Shah ka Kutta Wafadar ..

Agree but some people really are innocent (or maybe they pretend to be).

Ignorance is a bliss my friend ..
 
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