Pakistan has to accept India as big brother

[lamayuru]

Pakistan offered a joint investigation right after Mumbai.

If the proposal was not repeated, it was because the Indian political and military leadership, with the media megaphone, went into overdrive with accusations against the Pakistani state and war hysteria.

That was countered with anti-Indian coverage in the Pakistani media, which meant that any sympathy and desire for cooperation in the eyes of the Pakistan electorate in the aftermath of Mumbai was squandered, and politically it would be very hard for any GoP to make concessions.

But it is fact that Pakistan made an offer, repeatedly, for joint investigations with India before the anti-Pakistan and pro-war hysteria took over India.

Yes but why did the Pakistan Govt back track on sending Mr Pasha? There was a flip flop. some rethinking. What happened?

Your perspective on India un-necessarily beating war drums is something I can contend with. That may be owing to election realities and that the Indian Govt wanted to be seen to be putting up a stern face.

 

[lamayuru]

Pakistan offered a joint investigation right after Mumbai.

If the proposal was not repeated, it was because the Indian political and military leadership, with the media megaphone, went into overdrive with accusations against the Pakistani state and war hysteria.

That was countered with anti-Indian coverage in the Pakistani media, which meant that any sympathy and desire for cooperation in the eyes of the Pakistan electorate in the aftermath of Mumbai was squandered, and politically it would be very hard for any GoP to make concessions.

But it is fact that Pakistan made an offer, repeatedly, for joint investigations with India before the anti-Pakistan and pro-war hysteria took over India.

I find it hard to imagine how you could expect any lenient treatment when Pakistani nationals so brutally assaulted India's soft under belly. Did you fail to see how charged the whole atmosphere was?

 

[arihant]

It's better to call, "Both have to accept a Friendship for Better Future"

 

[lamayuru]

I'm sorry, I found it hard to understand your post.
I will try to respond as I interpreted it.



The China/Pak friendship is a genuine friendship based on mutual interests that go way beyond India. As stated elsewhere China provides technical, financial and diplomatic support to Pakistan. Pakistan provides China a bridge to the Middle East and the Islamic world. This relationship is sustainable even if India didn't exist.

This relationship is sustainable even if Pakistan didn't exist. (China <-> Middle East). Effectively from Pakistan there is no value add to the relation. Even in your own world view it is only religion you bring to the table. Anything else?


The "friendship of convenience" is the one we have with the US. Both sides know that. The same is true of the India/US relationship and the wiser Indians know that, but some ordinary Indians seem to be deluded.

Some would say all friendships are based on mutual interests. India and US must have interests concurring at some point.

Then its time to reposition yourself to get a better view.

Try and give me good reason and I may see your point in better light.

Precisely that. The Jewish lobby. AIPAC is the second most powerful lobby in Washington. Indians (or anyone else) cannot even dream of approaching their level of influence. The Indian lobby operates only by their grace. If you ever get on their wrong side, India would find itself on the dustheap of used American allies.

if ...but.. too hypothetical for me to comment on

That is why the Pakistani lobby has an uphill battle in Washington, compared to the Indian lobby.

India got the deal, Pakistan can only dream of it, despite a mighty China on your side.

I don't understand this part at all.

Is there something you still dont understand?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Yes but why did the Pakistan Govt back track on sending Mr Pasha? There was a flip flop. some rethinking. What happened?

Which official we choose to send is our prerogative - Gen. Pasha was not going to work miracles by going to India, and as the following comment from you underscores, would like have been utilized as a propaganda tool in any case.

I fail to see what the bruhahah over not sending one official vs another is.

I find it hard to imagine how you could expect any lenient treatment when Pakistani nationals so brutally assaulted India's soft under belly. Did you fail to see how charged the whole atmosphere was?

Whatever the Indian political and media compulsions to unleash a drumbeat of warmongering hysteria, the fact remains that Pakistan offered a joint investigation and India refused.

The atmosphere was not charged merely because of the assault, btu because of the inflammatory statements in the media and political and military leadership blaming the Pakistani state and institutions, something that continues to this day, without any evidence to substantiate it.

Had the Indian leadership not engaged in inflammatory rhetoric, the situation, both in terms of domestic Indian sentiment and reciprocal negative Pakistani sentiment, would have remained controllable.

 

[Developereo]

Possibly for another thread all its own, but I disagree with that.

I think that US interests, whether strategic or economic, are served well by being in a long term partnership with India, and we are seeing that, for example, with the double standards applied in offering India the nuclear deal.

I think the Chimerica dynamic is crucial in this context, but I agree that's another thread.

 

[Developereo]

So it kind of needs some things as 'deliverables' before it can re-calibrate the relationship with Pakistan on newer terms...

I think that India's politicians are sometimes hamstrung by Indian media. Even if they want to pursue a course of action which would be more productive, albeit less macho, they cannot do so for fear of being portrayed as weak by the media.

Pakistan's politicians, on the other hand, do what they want irrespective of the media.

I am not sure which is worse.

 

[lamayuru]

@AgNoStIc MuSliM:
"
Which official we choose to send is our prerogative - Gen. Pasha was not going to work miracles by going to India, and as the following comment from you underscores, would like have been utilized as a propaganda tool in any case.

I fail to see what the bruhahah over not sending one official vs another is.
"

OK.
1. What is Durrani saying? He is saying ISI and R&AW should be speaking to each other.

2. If you did not want to send Pasha in the first place, then why did your Govt agree initially. If you once commit you follow through and deliver or else you raise a stink. From the Indian perspective (and the kind of atmosphere that was) this could have been a good will gesture if nothing else. Can't you see that?

 

[Developereo]

The discussion is about the NOW.

In that case, I already answered it. Please refer back to my earlier post.

Read the article again. Durrani was speaking in Delhi today, his views are current- considering not some fictitious future world in which Pakistan is the lone superpower, but the hard reality of today.

Are you feeling OK?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

It does matter. One is treated as an equal only if one matches with the other in more than one criteria. Unless Pakistan can match India economically, industrially, militarily, or even in the field of scientific pursuits there is no question of being equal. Oh yeah, include Cricket too. All that talk of all people are equal is practically hogwash.

The we are talking real-politik, not respect, and to that end then what reason is there for Pakistan to extend India any courtesy or this 'big brother' sentiment?

And same question to you as well - what do you interpret 'respect' as? When you argue that Pakistan is not India's equivalent Militarily or economically, and therefore does not 'earn respecct' are you then arguing that India should support terrorism in Pakistan ala East Pakistan and Baluchistan? Are you arguing that India should seek to undermine Pakistan both domestically and globally?

Beyond merely regurgitating a cliche of 'respect is earned' what exactly are you implying India's attitude towards Pakistan should be in the present?

Now seriously, how do you equate Pakistan with India?

No one has been 'equating India and Pakistan' - people have called for the relationship between the two to be based on 'mutual respect'.

And if you thing mutual respect is 'anathema' what should this relationship look like exactly?

 

[lamayuru]

Are you feeling OK?

What part do you find hard to believe?

 

[sensenreason]

I think that India's politicians are sometimes hamstrung by Indian media. Even if they want to pursue a course of action which would be more productive, albeit less macho, they cannot do so for fear of being portrayed as weak by the media.

Pakistan's politicians, on the other hand, do what they want irrespective of the media.

I am not sure which is worse.

Surely media should not dictate policy. However, it is media's resposibility to point out any policy u turns and corruption etc..its like the public's court...

I do think the issue is not just media..a u turn in policy will be questioned by the opposition as well...its tough to sell a bad thought out strategy in the first place but its even tougher to change that policy and sell it to the same audience. Again.

Its like in a corporate world you were a product manager who made a dud product and now wants to create a new one...and has obvious concerns whether the board will approve or show him the door !!!

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

"

OK.
1. What is Durrani saying? He is saying ISI and R&AW should be speaking to each other.

Structured, long term institutional contacts - something that Gen. Pasha alluded to in inviting his RAW counterpart, and not some spur of the moment dash to the other capital immediately after some incident.

2. If you did not want to send Pasha in the first place, then why did your Govt agree initially. If you once commit you follow through and deliver or else you raise a stink. From the Indian perspective (and the kind of atmosphere that was) this could have been a good will gesture if nothing else. Can't you see that?

I agree - the offer to send Gen. Pasha was not vetted properly and offered by the Pakistani leadership in a conversation with the Indian leadership.

And this was a suggested visit (informally at that) of an official, not some sort of joint statement or treaty being violated.

In any case, the Pakistani foreign minister and various other officials were already in Pakistan to handle Indian concerns at a high official level.

 

[lamayuru]

The we are talking real-politik, not respect, and to that end then what reason is there for Pakistan to extend India any courtesy or this 'big brother' sentiment?

And same question to you as well - what do you interpret 'respect' as? When you argue that Pakistan is not India's equivalent Militarily or economically, and therefore does not 'earn respecct' are you then arguing that India should support terrorism in Pakistan ala East Pakistan and Baluchistan? Are you arguing that India should seek to undermine Pakistan both domestically and globally?

Beyond merely regurgitating a cliche of 'respect is earned' what exactly are you implying India's attitude towards Pakistan should be in the present?


No one has been 'equating India and Pakistan' - people have called for the relationship between the two to be based on 'mutual respect'.

And if you thing mutual respect is 'anathema' what should this relationship look like exactly?

Size may or may not matter.

Social standing among the comity of nations definitely does. That is why today South Korea/Japan etc rank above Pakistan/India. India's stature is growing with time, while the same cannot be said about Pakistan. So many in India & Pakistan feel India-Pak will be a lop sided relation even if things improve.

 

[Developereo]

This relationship is sustainable even if Pakistan didn't exist. (China <-> Middle East). Effectively from Pakistan there is no value add to the relation. Even in your own world view it is only religion you bring to the table. Anything else?

Regrettable that you see everything through a religious prism. Perhaps you slept through geography class?

Some would say all friendships are based on mutual interests.

Quite true. But some friendships pass the test of time. These are all-weather friends.

Try and give me good reason and I may see your point in better light.

Already did. Please reread my post about mutual benefits to China and Pakistan, and how it exists regardless of India. You really do have an exaggerated sense of your own importance.

if ...but.. too hypothetical for me to comment on

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