Pakistan has Integrated its Own Standoff Weapons with Turkish Baykar Bayraktar Akıncı: Turkiye Urdu

[Corax]

I agree with the point about the KAAN replacing the Viper, but I don't think we'll see the PAF pursue a separate FGFA fighter program. I believe the future of the PAF will pretty much be the FGFA, J-10CE, and JF-17 (from current to future variants). Each of those fighter types brings a specific set of capabilities (e.g., payload, range and stealth in the KAAN; adept air-to-air in the J-10CE; affordability and numbers in the JF-17). Provided that their respective electronics suites are modern and they are compatible with the latest munitions, they'll do fine in their respective roles.

The way I see it, the KAAN and J-10CE would form the offensive speartip of the PAF. These are the aircraft the PAF will send into Swift Retort-type missions, i.e., a nucleus of a few KAAN (carrying SOWs) plus J-10CEs with LRAAMs. The PAF will further complement them with UCAVs, be it loyal wingman with LRAAMS or strike UCAVs with PGBs. Moreover, a number of KAANs will likely take up the maritime support role too.

However, the JF-17 (especially a later variant as @arslank03 explained) would continue forming the workhorse of the fleet. This fighter will take the lead in guarding Pakistani airspace, supporting the offensive formations where necessary, carrying out the bulk of strikes in border disputes, and possibly -- down the line -- CAS (when equipped with a guided dispenser munition, ARMs, AGMs, etc).

IMO... by 2040 the PAF could be aiming for 90 FGFAs, 150 J-10CEs, and 90-150 JF-17s.

I'm slightly sceptical of whether the PAF will keep that many JF-17s operational by 2040, and there's only so much you can do with the aiframe of the JF-17 until it essentially becomes a completely new design. Yes, funding is always going to be an issues, when is it never? But here we are with all the current doom and gloom and the PAF is signing up to the KAAN project, as well as countless other ongoing armed forces projects, so make of that what you will. The main reason why I think an altogether different single engine FGFA programme could be on the cards is synergies with an optional unmanned loyal wing variant, as well as using the lessons learnt from the JF-17 programme and extend those to a nex gen type. Moreover, if we assume just 90 FGFAs and the rest of a c. 400 fleet comprising J-10s and JF-17s, that still means three quarters of the PAF fleet comprising previous gen platforms, which in my view won't cut it past 2040. A fleet comprising 90-100 KAAN, 100-150 single engine FGFA, 50 loyal wingman variant, and 60-90 J-10C would be better suited by 2040-50, in my view.

 

[arslank03]

I'm slightly sceptical of whether the PAF will keep that many JF-17s operational by 2040, and there's only so much you can do with the aiframe of the JF-17 until it essentially becomes a completely new design. Yes, funding is always going to be an issues, when is it never? But here we are with all the current doom and gloom and the PAF is signing up to the KAAN project, as well as countless other ongoing armed forces projects, so make of that what you will. The main reason why I think an altogether different single engine FGFA programme could be on the cards is synergies with an optional unmanned loyal wing variant, as well as using the lessons learnt from the JF-17 programme and extend those to a nex gen type. Moreover, if we assume just 90 FGFAs and the rest of a c. 400 fleet comprising J-10s and JF-17s, that still means three quarters of the PAF fleet comprising previous gen platforms, which in my view won't cut it past 2040. A fleet comprising 90-100 KAAN, 100-150 single engine FGFA, 50 loyal wingman variant, and 60-90 J-10C would be better suited by 2040-50, in my view.

"there's only so much you can do with the aiframe of the JF-17 until it essentially becomes a completely new design. "

but thats the point, nothing will be done to the airframe, it will literally just be an overhaul of the electronics, which is what matters. The JF-17 is meant to be the low end solution, it doesnt need to be anything crazy. Think of it as your CIWS- your last line of defense, then your J-10s are your wide area AAW followed by the KAAN as your offensive weapons.

 

[Corax]

"there's only so much you can do with the aiframe of the JF-17 until it essentially becomes a completely new design. "

but thats the point, nothing will be done to the airframe, it will literally just be an overhaul of the electronics, which is what matters. The JF-17 is meant to be the low end solution, it doesnt need to be anything crazy. Think of it as your CIWS- your last line of defense, then your J-10s are your wide area AAW followed by the KAAN as your offensive weapons.

I guess the main calculus for the PAF will be the prevailing threat dynamic from the IAF, given the historical trend of the PAF responding to developments in the IAF. If the PAF feels further upgraded versions of the JF-17 are sufficient, then it will pursue that option. Given the likely long timeline until the IAF induct any viable fifth gen platform in any significant numbers, a PAF fleet mostly comprising of upgraded JF-17s and J-10s, with a 'top end' of approx 100 KAANs may well be sufficient.

 

[LeGenD]

Just saying, i am still confident in that we will see a block 4 JF-17, i have been saying so since 2021 and still believe as such, lets look at it logically:

It's pretty clear that the PAF is seeking further indigenization of the JF-17, Block 3 received home-grown EW systems designed from scratch alongside SDR's, the same team designing these systems was also in charge of the fighter radar. AFAIK, they were moved from the radar onto these projects so i assume that would have meant the radar program was shelved, but i don't think that was the end of that.

Aside from that, it will be very expensive for the PAF to let AMF run idle, so either they will continue to order block 3's or a new iteration as a whole before AMF transitions to NGFA production.

Alongside this, its pretty clear the JF-17 has yet not reached the level that the PAF envisioned, uprated engine, IRST, more diverse weapons etc. While none of this sounds significant, this is all summarised, i have pretty strong reason to believe we will see a block IV.

The PAF will keep the production line running, using Block 3's to fill it until the funds are available and development is complete. Currently, funds are low, hence the block 3 order was cut and the production rate has been lowered to keep the line from idling, once funds are there, i anticipate another 20/25 aircraft and then the line will transition to a block IV, domestic AESA, new cockpit, domestic AAM's, improved IEWS, a guess is potentially some more advanced materials as PAC starts to prepare for transitioning to more advanced production processes, new engine, improved national TDL/IFF etc, these will also trickle their way down to MLU JF-17s IMO, i dont think they'll receive KLJ-7A but thats just a guess on my part, i think the PAF will try and standardise the fleet around their own domestic radar and further develop that

lets see what happens

Block 3 is already a significant and costly update to JF-17.

PAF should consider creating a Medium-weight class jet fighter with Turkish support. Budget should be diverted to this project instead of spending much on a Light-weight class jet fighter.

PAF should also seek new F-16 updates from Turkey. This jet fighter will remain relevant in the years to come.

KAAN might come in late 2030s. Let's see.

 

[Bilal.]

Just saying, i am still confident in that we will see a block 4 JF-17, i have been saying so since 2021 and still believe as such, lets look at it logically:

It's pretty clear that the PAF is seeking further indigenization of the JF-17, Block 3 received home-grown EW systems designed from scratch alongside SDR's, the same team designing these systems was also in charge of the fighter radar. AFAIK, they were moved from the radar onto these projects so i assume that would have meant the radar program was shelved, but i don't think that was the end of that.

Aside from that, it will be very expensive for the PAF to let AMF run idle, so either they will continue to order block 3's or a new iteration as a whole before AMF transitions to NGFA production.

Alongside this, its pretty clear the JF-17 has yet not reached the level that the PAF envisioned, uprated engine, IRST, more diverse weapons etc. While none of this sounds significant, this is all summarised, i have pretty strong reason to believe we will see a block IV.

The PAF will keep the production line running, using Block 3's to fill it until the funds are available and development is complete. Currently, funds are low, hence the block 3 order was cut and the production rate has been lowered to keep the line from idling, once funds are there, i anticipate another 20/25 aircraft and then the line will transition to a block IV, domestic AESA, new cockpit, domestic AAM's, improved IEWS, a guess is potentially some more advanced materials as PAC starts to prepare for transitioning to more advanced production processes, new engine, improved national TDL/IFF etc, these will also trickle their way down to MLU JF-17s IMO, i dont think they'll receive KLJ-7A but thats just a guess on my part, i think the PAF will try and standardise the fleet around their own domestic radar and further develop that

lets see what happens

Two questions. Are the TRM GaN based. Is our jammer based on GaN array. If so we are at the most cutting edge.

Few things I would like to have in block 4 along with what you listed is a bright cloud type decoys, DRFM along with internal/integrated GaN based jamming arrays, maybe a towed decoy and more internal fuel/endurance.

 

[arslank03]

Block 3 is already a significant and costly update to JF-17.

PAF should consider creating a Medium-weight class jet fighter with Turkish support. Budget should be diverted to this project instead of spending much on a Light-weight class jet fighter.

PAF should also seek new F-16 updates from Turkey. This jet fighter will remain relevant in the years to come.

KAAN might come in late 2030s. Let's see.

Creating another fighter will be even more costly. JF-17 localisation will be cheaper and integrating more systems developed locally will drag that cost down. Thats why Turkey is pushing for partners in kaan, to share development costs and bring down the unit cost. There is zero logical reason for a new development unless there is a flaw with the JF-17s airframe which you can pinpoint for me

Two questions. Are the TRM GaN based. Is our jammer based on GaN array. If so we are at the most cutting edge.

Few things I would like to have in block 4 along with what you listed is a bright cloud type decoys, DRFM along with internal/integrated GaN based jamming arrays, maybe a towed decoy and more internal fuel/endurance.

Yes, our domestic TRM's are GaN based. Designed and developed @/with NUST

 

[TheSolution]

Block 3 is already a significant and costly update to JF-17.

PAF should consider creating a Medium-weight class jet fighter with Turkish support. Budget should be diverted to this project instead of spending much on a Light-weight class jet fighter.

This is basically what KAAN is, no need to go for another.

JF-17 complete localisation/indigenisation should be used to refine and expand our high-skill workforce and develop critical infrastructure, to build a reliable and solid R&D foundation. It will allow us to more efficiently pursue grand projects in the future similar to Azm without it being a failure.

This below:

There's no way we have sufficient funds to pursue both of those things... Plus the ecosystem in Pakistan is really not mature enough to jump the gun so far ahead, with multiple high-end projects at once.

Why can't we just work on building a strong foundation of a competent, highly-skilled and reliable R&D base first before sinking huge funds into multiple complex projects?

KAAN and an indigenised JF-17 should be used as a starting point to refine and expand our skill force, build high-quality infrastructure and a strong & reliable ecosystem to then take on more complex projects. It ensures a greater degree of success, resources put to use more efficiently, and end product will be of higher quality & standard.

 

[LeGenD]

This is basically what KAAN is, no need to go for another.

JF-17 complete localisation/indigenisation should be used to refine and expand our high-skill workforce and develop critical infrastructure, to build a reliable and solid R&D foundation. It will allow us to more efficiently pursue grand projects in the future similar to Azm without it being a failure.

This below:

The JF-17 project provided an opportunity to develop some of the parts in-house and was a good learning experience on the whole. The fundamental objective was to create a jet fighter that was better than F-7PG and replace it and other older jets. This purpose is served.

Now WE are trying to put too much in JF-17 and expect it to challenge the likes of Rafale F3R and other big jets. This is not going to work. F-16s made it possible for PAF to defeat IAF in Operation Swift Retort.

There is no need to phase out JF-17 but a light-weight airframe has its limitations. If WE try to install new items in JF-17, these additions will stress JF-17 airframe. There are reports of cracks in JF-17 airframe, these might be fixed but the problem exists.

Medium-weight class is the way to go. PAF should shift its focus to Medium-weight class projects. Lessons learned from JF-17 can be put to use in these projects and probably do a better job.

 

[TheSolution]

The JF-17 project provided an opportunity to develop some of the parts in-house and was a good learning experience on the whole. The fundamental objective was to create a jet fighter that was better than F-7PG and replace it and other older jets. This purpose is served.

Now WE are trying to put too much in JF-17 and expect it to challenge the likes of Rafale F3R and other big jets. This is not going to work. F-16s made it possible for PAF to defeat IAF in Operation Swift Retort.

There is no need to phase out JF-17 but a light-weight airframe has its limitations. If WE try to install new items in JF-17, these additions will stress JF-17 airframe. There are reports of cracks in JF-17 airframe, these might be fixed but the problem exists.

Medium-weight class is the way to go. PAF should shift its focus to Medium-weight class projects. Lessons learned from JF-17 can be put to use in these projects and probably do a better job.

I understand and actually agree with what you are saying, but the point of my argument here is that the medium-weight fighter developmebt you mention is already present in the KAAN collaboration.

We also are increasing the number of J-10C's we have which is a potent platform at the level of the F-16 Block-52 at least.

I mention the JF-17 not to try and make it something that can rival the Rafale or do things past its airframe and structural limitations, but just to completely indigenise its components, this will help establish a strong R&D foundation of a highly-skilled work force as well as critical infrastructure and knowledge.

Using this base, we will be more equipped to take on more complex projects like Azm in the future, which at the moment was simply far far too unrealistic for our capacity or R&D base.

I think we are rushing too ahead without any real existing capacity for it

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

IMO, the only net-new development projects Pakistan can and maybe should pursue are UCAVs of various sizes and capabilities. These can be simpler to develop than a manned jet while also playing critical roles in the future, e.g. loyal wingman, deep strike, etc.

 

[arslank03]

IMO, the only net-new development projects Pakistan can and maybe should pursue are UCAVs of various sizes and capabilities. These can be simpler to develop than a manned jet while also playing critical roles in the future, e.g. loyal wingman, deep strike, etc.

10000000000% its prime time, while Turkey takes lead on designing TFX and we support their development, we should take up the development of the UMT part of MUMT, we can start working on the ecosystem with them

 

[arslank03]

Just saying, i am still confident in that we will see a block 4 JF-17, i have been saying so since 2021 and still believe as such, lets look at it logically:

It's pretty clear that the PAF is seeking further indigenization of the JF-17, Block 3 received home-grown EW systems designed from scratch alongside SDR's, the same team designing these systems was also in charge of the fighter radar. AFAIK, they were moved from the radar onto these projects so i assume that would have meant the radar program was shelved, but i don't think that was the end of that.

Aside from that, it will be very expensive for the PAF to let AMF run idle, so either they will continue to order block 3's or a new iteration as a whole before AMF transitions to NGFA production.

Alongside this, its pretty clear the JF-17 has yet not reached the level that the PAF envisioned, uprated engine, IRST, more diverse weapons etc. While none of this sounds significant, this is all summarised, i have pretty strong reason to believe we will see a block IV.

The PAF will keep the production line running, using Block 3's to fill it until the funds are available and development is complete. Currently, funds are low, hence the block 3 order was cut and the production rate has been lowered to keep the line from idling, once funds are there, i anticipate another 20/25 aircraft and then the line will transition to a block IV, domestic AESA, new cockpit, domestic AAM's, improved IEWS, a guess is potentially some more advanced materials as PAC starts to prepare for transitioning to more advanced production processes, new engine, improved national TDL/IFF etc, these will also trickle their way down to MLU JF-17s IMO, i dont think they'll receive KLJ-7A but thats just a guess on my part, i think the PAF will try and standardise the fleet around their own domestic radar and further develop that

lets see what happens

Back up prediction:

AMF will transition into production of a local LIFT, time will tell, i feel very confident that atleast one of these will be right and come to fruition. Lets hope i dont need to eat my words!

 

[HRK]

Back up prediction:

AMF will transition into production of a local LIFT, time will tell, i feel very confident that atleast one of these will be right and come to fruition. Lets hope i dont need to eat my words!

OK could be a logical a step but can you make a guess or imagine an engine which could be used for that possible local LIFT program ... ???

 

[Falcon34]

Yes, our domestic TRM's are GaN based. Designed and developed @/with NUST

are these for both the jammer or radar??

 

[Shabi1]

larger image

Are those AAMs loaded on the pylons?