Pakistan has Integrated its Own Standoff Weapons with Turkish Baykar Bayraktar Akıncı: Turkiye Urdu

[indushek]

The PAF is interested in acquiring the KAAN for its fleet. There's literally no other option like it on the market at this moment (i.e., a large twin-engine platform capable of carrying the strike role). Moreover, I think the induction of the J-10CE has given the PAF a reliable fallback; should the KAAN hit a delay, the PAF can keep adding more J-10CEs. Of course, things could change again once the Chinese have an export-ready NGFA, e.g., land-based J-35.

IMO, stuff like "PF-X" and so on are just meaningless acronyms made to create desk jobs for retired officers. The only time I might consider this stuff remotely credible is if NESCOM or SPD announce it.

What happened to J 31, I thought that was what Pakistan is going for, given the acquisition of J10's.

 

[Zarvan]

- By the acronym PF-X it is clear that its some aerial fighter platform of Pakistan.

- BUT Picture of flags of Pakistan and other 3 neighbouring countries suggest Pakistan is in some stage of discussion with these countries related to such a project whose IP RIGHTS would be held by Pakistan

- But reports related to Pakistan is in final stage of negotiations/ joining the KAAN program with Turkey suggest that either collaboration/ involvement on KAAN program would be done only on common system and subsystem level but KAAN as a ready platform might not be adopted.


God knows better, but these are few points i deduced from few pictures posted above ..

PF-X is not KAAN. KAAN is different this is different. @Bilal Khan (Quwa)

 

[indushek]

- By the acronym PF-X it is clear that its some aerial fighter platform of Pakistan.

- BUT Picture of flags of Pakistan and other 3 neighbouring countries suggest Pakistan is in some stage of discussion with these countries related to such a project whose IP RIGHTS would be held by Pakistan

- But reports related to Pakistan is in final stage of negotiations/ joining the KAAN program with Turkey suggest that either collaboration/ involvement on KAAN program would be done only on common system and subsystem level but KAAN as a ready platform might not be adopted.


God knows better, but these are few points i deduced from few pictures posted above ..

IP rights for which technologies? Hasn't Turkey already manufactured the Tech demonstrator?

The second bolded part, are you saying Pakistan is going on their own, and will collaborate with Turkey on certain techs that will be common between respective platforms? Is there a fifth gen platform under works by Pakistan now?

 

[TheSolution]

PF-X is not KAAN. KAAN is different this is different. @Bilal Khan (Quwa)

I think all in-house projects for a stealth fighter have been abandoned.

Even NASTP doesn't explicitly mention the goal of any kind of stealth platform apart from fancy models for decoration. It's only about general R&D and also boosting the private sector, engaging companies.

"PF-X" I think is going to be the last iteration of the JF-17 and they probably want to completely indigenise its manufacturing.

 

[Zarvan]

I think all in-house projects for a stealth fighter have been abandoned.

Even NASTP doesn't explicitly mention the goal of any kind of stealth platform apart from fancy models for decoration. It's only about general R&D and also boosting the private sector, engaging companies.

"PF-X" I think is going to be the last iteration of the JF-17 and they probably want to completely indigenise its manufacturing.

They just used JF-17 picture. I repeat KAAN is different, and this is different thing. Don't discuss this much on internet. Please try to avoid it.

 

[HRK]

PF-X is not KAAN. KAAN is different this is different. @Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Bhai aap ne mera ilm main izafa ker diya bobat bohat shukriya aap ka

 

[TheSolution]

They just used JF-17 picture. I repeat KAAN is different, and this is different thing. Don't discuss this much on internet. Please try to avoid it.

There's no way we have sufficient funds to pursue both of those things... Plus the ecosystem in Pakistan is really not mature enough to jump the gun so far ahead, with multiple high-end projects at once.

Why can't we just work on building a strong foundation of a competent, highly-skilled and reliable R&D base first before sinking huge funds into multiple complex projects?

KAAN and an indigenised JF-17 should be used as a starting point to refine and expand our skill force, build high-quality infrastructure and a strong & reliable ecosystem to then take on more complex projects. It ensures a greater degree of success, resources put to use more efficiently, and end product will be of higher quality & standard.

 

[dBSPL]

If I have to speak for the projects in TR, I have the idea that these combat projects will fork into quite different variants over time. This is also true for non-combat projects. For example, Hürjet is an advanced training and acrotim jet project. And a light attack variant was planned in the second phase. However, we now know that a Naval variant is being developed. I'm sure aviation enthusiasts are well aware of the difference.

The same will be true for KAAN. In any case, what needs to be addressed here is the concept of MMU, and it is necessary to evaluate it through OKU, which will be its main backbone. Contrary to popular belief, I believe that the next period in modern combat aviation will not be a period in which there will not be a unification in platform diversity, but a period in which variative flexibility will be gained according to the needs by preserving the common infrastructure. Therefore, 'purely speculative and personal opinion', but I believe that we will see several different aircraft, including single-engine MMUs, If Allah gives life.

The opening of infrastructure to Pakistan, cooperation in design activities and sharing of production functions may perhaps be aimed at enabling Pakistan to achieve a completely indigenous variant with maximum common infrastructure. It is difficult to say anything today. As the agreements are formalized and the details become more concrete, we can make more consistent predictions about the future.

 

[arslank03]

Just saying, i am still confident in that we will see a block 4 JF-17, i have been saying so since 2021 and still believe as such, lets look at it logically:

It's pretty clear that the PAF is seeking further indigenization of the JF-17, Block 3 received home-grown EW systems designed from scratch alongside SDR's, the same team designing these systems was also in charge of the fighter radar. AFAIK, they were moved from the radar onto these projects so i assume that would have meant the radar program was shelved, but i don't think that was the end of that.

Aside from that, it will be very expensive for the PAF to let AMF run idle, so either they will continue to order block 3's or a new iteration as a whole before AMF transitions to NGFA production.

Alongside this, its pretty clear the JF-17 has yet not reached the level that the PAF envisioned, uprated engine, IRST, more diverse weapons etc. While none of this sounds significant, this is all summarised, i have pretty strong reason to believe we will see a block IV.

The PAF will keep the production line running, using Block 3's to fill it until the funds are available and development is complete. Currently, funds are low, hence the block 3 order was cut and the production rate has been lowered to keep the line from idling, once funds are there, i anticipate another 20/25 aircraft and then the line will transition to a block IV, domestic AESA, new cockpit, domestic AAM's, improved IEWS, a guess is potentially some more advanced materials as PAC starts to prepare for transitioning to more advanced production processes, new engine, improved national TDL/IFF etc, these will also trickle their way down to MLU JF-17s IMO, i dont think they'll receive KLJ-7A but thats just a guess on my part, i think the PAF will try and standardise the fleet around their own domestic radar and further develop that

lets see what happens

 

[Zarvan]

There's no way we have sufficient funds to pursue both of those things... Plus the ecosystem in Pakistan is really not mature enough to jump the gun so far ahead, with multiple high-end projects at once.

Why can't we just work on building a strong foundation of a competent, highly-skilled and reliable R&D base first before sinking huge funds into multiple complex projects?

KAAN and an indigenised JF-17 should be used as a starting point to refine and expand our skill force, build high-quality infrastructure and a strong & reliable ecosystem to then take on more complex projects. It ensures a greater degree of success, resources put to use more efficiently, and end product will be of higher quality & standard.

Look at the picture carefully if you are smart enough you will get the answer. Don't just look at PF-X. Use common sense and you would get your answer. Everything is answered in that picture. Read and look at it carefully.

@HRK

 

[TheSolution]

Look at the picture carefully if you are smart enough you will get the answer. Don't just look at PF-X. Use common sense and you would get your answer. Everything is answered in that picture. Read and look at it carefully.

@HRK

Do you mean this picture?

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Just saying, i am still confident in that we will see a block 4 JF-17, i have been saying so since 2021 and still believe as such, lets look at it logically:

It's pretty clear that the PAF is seeking further indigenization of the JF-17, Block 3 received home-grown EW systems designed from scratch alongside SDR's, the same team designing these systems was also in charge of the fighter radar. AFAIK, they were moved from the radar onto these projects so i assume that would have meant the radar program was shelved, but i don't think that was the end of that.

Aside from that, it will be very expensive for the PAF to let AMF run idle, so either they will continue to order block 3's or a new iteration as a whole before AMF transitions to NGFA production.

Alongside this, its pretty clear the JF-17 has yet not reached the level that the PAF envisioned, uprated engine, IRST, more diverse weapons etc. While none of this sounds significant, this is all summarised, i have pretty strong reason to believe we will see a block IV.

The PAF will keep the production line running, using Block 3's to fill it until the funds are available and development is complete. Currently, funds are low, hence the block 3 order was cut and the production rate has been lowered to keep the line from idling, once funds are there, i anticipate another 20/25 aircraft and then the line will transition to a block IV, domestic AESA, new cockpit, domestic AAM's, improved IEWS, a guess is potentially some more advanced materials as PAC starts to prepare for transitioning to more advanced production processes, new engine, improved national TDL/IFF etc, these will also trickle their way down to MLU JF-17s IMO, i dont think they'll receive KLJ-7A but thats just a guess on my part, i think the PAF will try and standardise the fleet around their own domestic radar and further develop that

lets see what happens

I agree, and I think the PAF could potentially replace the Block-1s and Block-2s with Block-3 and JF-17B-based fighters, e.g., Block-4 and so on. Overall, the Thunder is a good platform, and with a continually updated electronics and weapons suite, it can do a lot of what the PAF needs out of its fighter fleet. IMO, the J-10CE and NGFA (be it KAAN or otherwise) would be more of the offensive force, i.e., the speartip, and maritime capability.

 

[Corax]

Look at the picture carefully if you are smart enough you will get the answer. Don't just look at PF-X. Use common sense and you would get your answer. Everything is answered in that picture. Read and look at it carefully.

@HRK

I mentioned the possibility of something like this in another thread.

If this news is correct, Kaan to replace PAF Vipers over time, and possibly J-35 or equivalent Chinese platform to replace JF-17s over-long-term, with J-10C as second tier platform. I still wouldn't discount the possibility of a single engine fifth gen platform in lieu of the J-35, developed along similar lines as the JF-17, i.e. co-developed with Chinese entities specifically for the PAF. Although project Azm as a completely in-house developed fifth gen platform can be written off, the fact that the aviation city is still going ahead, suggests that the PAF wants to see a return on its investment in terms of home grown projects. Clearly the scope has been scaled down from a twin engine FGF, but given the PAF's propensity for single engine, cost effective platforms that can be operated in fairly large numbers, I wouldn't be surprised if something along these lines eventually emerges from the remnants of project Azm.

KAAN is most likely to replace the Viper in the long-term, but in my view there is potential space for a cheaper single-engine FGFA, developed using the same model as the JF-17, i.e. collaboration with most likely a Chinese institute to develop a singe engine FGFA designed for PAF requirements, control of IP, and produced by PAC in relatively large numbers. KAAN is a heavy twin engine design in the same weight class as the F-15 and F-18, and historically the PAF has not operated fighters in that weight class, because they can't be acquired in large numbers, maintenance, etc. So long-term, KAAN to replace Vipers, with a potential single engine FGFA to replace JF-17, and J-10C making up a third tier.

 

[Zarvan]

Do you mean this picture? View attachment 945342

Yes

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I mentioned the possibility of something like this in another thread.



KAAN is most likely to replace the Viper in the long-term, but in my view there is potential space for a cheaper single-engine FGFA, developed using the same model as the JF-17, i.e. collaboration with most likely a Chinese institute to develop a singe engine FGFA designed for PAF requirements, control of IP, and produced by PAC in relatively large numbers. KAAN is a heavy twin engine design in the same weight class as the F-15 and F-18, and historically the PAF has not operated fighters in that weight class, because they can't be acquired in large numbers, maintenance, etc. So long-term, KAAN to replace Vipers, with a potential single engine FGFA to replace JF-17, and J-10C making up a third tier.

I agree with the point about the KAAN replacing the Viper, but I don't think we'll see the PAF pursue a separate FGFA fighter program. I believe the future of the PAF will pretty much be the FGFA, J-10CE, and JF-17 (from current to future variants). Each of those fighter types brings a specific set of capabilities (e.g., payload, range and stealth in the KAAN; adept air-to-air in the J-10CE; affordability and numbers in the JF-17). Provided that their respective electronics suites are modern and they are compatible with the latest munitions, they'll do fine in their respective roles.

The way I see it, the KAAN and J-10CE would form the offensive speartip of the PAF. These are the aircraft the PAF will send into Swift Retort-type missions, i.e., a nucleus of a few KAAN (carrying SOWs) plus J-10CEs with LRAAMs. The PAF will further complement them with UCAVs, be it loyal wingman with LRAAMS or strike UCAVs with PGBs. Moreover, a number of KAANs will likely take up the maritime support role too.

However, the JF-17 (especially a later variant as @arslank03 explained) would continue forming the workhorse of the fleet. This fighter will take the lead in guarding Pakistani airspace, supporting the offensive formations where necessary, carrying out the bulk of strikes in border disputes, and possibly -- down the line -- CAS (when equipped with a guided dispenser munition, ARMs, AGMs, etc).

IMO... by 2040 the PAF could be aiming for 90 FGFAs, 150 J-10CEs, and 90-150 JF-17s.