Pakistan has been offered the Chinese 4th generation J-11 (SU27)

[p2prada]

Pakistan has flown twin engined aircraft in the past and continues to do so. F-6 and A-5 are both twin-engined. In terms of complexity, in the indo-Pakistan context, you cannot compare the one true Electric jet to anything that IAF has until now. This being the F-16. Overall the F-16's engineering support requirements are more complex than most of what is flying in the IAF.

Engineering wise, maintaining F-16 is just as complex as the F-15 (F-15 requiring more work owing to its two engines and size, however the complexity of technology is about the same....thank God for FRU and LRUs).

Alos the above post by March23 does not take into account the massive effort expended during the Afghan war (1984-88). PAF flew the hell out of the F-16s and none of the aircraft were lost due to recurring maintenance issues.

A-5 and F-6 are easily vintage planes. No fly-by-wire so no complication like MKI and F-15.


U are actually comparing a F-16A/B with the MKI.
Even the chinese said the J-10 is only as good as the F-16A/B and it is confirmed the MKIs are superior to the su-30MKK which is nowhere close to the J-10.

 

[p2prada]

Pakistani F-16s reach 100,000 accident free flight hours
October 4, 2005 (by Asif Shamim) - A three-member delegation of Pratt & Whitney called on Air Chief Marshal Kaleem Saadat, Chief of the Air Staff Pakistan Air Force at Air Headquarters to present a plaque to the Chief of the Air Staff in recognition of flying the F-16, for over 100,000 accident-free flight hours.
Lloyd W. "Fig" Newton, executive vice president, presented a plaque to the Chief of the Air Staff in recognition of flying the F-16, for over 100,000 accident-free flight hours.

They also commended the maintenance, quality control and flight safety standards of the PAF, which made this achievement possible.

Retired Gen. Lloyd Newton, along with Gen. (R) William J Begert, Vice President and Warren Boley, Vice President, remained with Air Chief Marshal Kaleem Sadaat, Chief of Air Staff for some time and discussed matters pertaining to mutual and professional interest.

So from 1994-2008 32 pakistani F-16s have clocked over 140,000 accident-free flight hours! unfortunately you are feed of with too much bahratraksha anti-pak nonsense thing and its very hard for you guys to swallow these facts...

From what i know, PAF had 40 F-16s starting from 1983. How did that reduce to 32??? So, 8 crashed???

 

[blain2]

A-5 and F-6 are easily vintage planes. No fly-by-wire so no complication like MKI and F-15.


U are actually comparing a F-16A/B with the MKI.
Even the chinese said the J-10 is only as good as the F-16A/B and it is confirmed the MKIs are superior to the su-30MKK which is nowhere close to the J-10.

Vintage or not, the point I was addressing is the experience dealing with twin-engined aircraft. Of which PAF has plenty. Your other points about stuff like challenges with FBW etc. are also rudimentary for an Air Force like the PAF.

And yes I am comparing F-16A/B (FBW started with the F-16s in case you were not aware) with the MKI as difficult as it may be for you to agree with. The complexity of the systems on the F-16 is just as high as that of any other aircraft around. The supply chain, the LRUs etc. etc. are as complicated as they get. The newer aircraft like Raptor etc. are actually easier to maintain than the contemporary teen series (F-15, F-16 and F/A-18).

Comparing an aircraft's superior capabilities on paper does not make the aircraft a more or less complicated aircraft. Some due to their design are inherently hard to support, others are easier. Also complexity is not a virtue either, I am just telling you the stop thinking that MKIs are something grand or brand new to aviation. What is in the MKI is in others. The TVC would require more maintenance but the avionics, parts, propulsion in Western platforms has always been just as or more challenging than their Russian counterparts.

 

[blain2]

From what i know, PAF had 40 F-16s starting from 1983. How did that reduce to 32??? So, 8 crashed???

Yes 8 were lost. Work out the attrition and its better than IAF's for Mirage 2000 after PAF has flown these aircraft for 24 years (include 4 years of combat flying). Also include sanctions in your calculations (IAF were never sanctioned for spares).

IAF inducted M2000 in 85 or so, since then have lost 9 of these and at a minimum 9 (for sure more) Mig-29s.

Overall F-16 maintenance has not been too shabby in the Indo-Pak context.

 

[Muradk]

As Keys has mentioned, you may be confusing the aircraft designations. The venerable "Chakka" (F-6) was the backbone of the PAF for many decades.

See this for S&G
Pakistan Military Consortium :: www.PakDef.info

Imrand you must be confusing it with F-5 , I commanded 14 Sqd when they had F-6's.

 

[Keysersoze]

A-5 and F-6 are easily vintage planes. No fly-by-wire so no complication like MKI and F-15.


U are actually comparing a F-16A/B with the MKI.
Even the chinese said the J-10 is only as good as the F-16A/B and it is confirmed the MKIs are superior to the su-30MKK which is nowhere close to the J-10.

Simple fact is that according to reports The IAF has not been able to to maintain their fleet. Whereas the F-16's have been flying without any problems, despite sanctions. And I am quite sure that they having maintained a complex aircraft (Despite what you think the F-16 was and is a complex aircraft to maintain) and would have no problems doing so.

Nearly 20% of Indian Air Force (IAF) pilots are doing desk jobs because of a shortage of planes, the BBC has learnt.

Classified documents seen by the BBC show that in all about a third of the IAF's 2,500 pilots have been assigned ground and administrative duties.

Of these, 450 fit and trained pilots simply lack planes, the documents say.

Growing numbers of IAF pilots have been refused permission to quit in recent months. The Indian Air Force had "no comment" on the BBC's findings.

The IAF has about 790 aircraft in total, including 340 fighter planes.

Only half the fleet is available at any given time while the rest are being serviced, the documents show.

By 2010 the air forces' transport fleet will be reduced by nearly 40%.

The IAF, which currently has 34 squadrons, plans to reduce that number to 28 by 2013.

Poor utilisation

Some of the pilots put on ground and administrative jobs by the force spoke to the BBC.

They said the jobs they had been given contradicted claims by senior officials that pilots who wanted to leave the IAF could not do so as it would create a shortage of pilots.

"Whatever the authorities might say, the fact is that the air force is overstaffed in terms of pilots," one of the pilots, who has served in the IAF for 15 years, told the BBC.

This was despite the IAF spending millions of rupees on pilot training, he said.

Another serving pilot with more than a decade of service said: "In every air force station, you would find fully competent and medically fit pilots posted to various ground administrative jobs.

"The average utilisation rate of pilots in terms of flying hours per month is very low, as much as five to six hours a month," he added.

Earlier this year, the chief of the Indian Air Force told the BBC he was aware that some pilots wanted to leave his force, although he said the numbers were much lower than reported.

Air Chief Marshal SP Tyagi put it down to India's booming civil aviation industry and the lucrative salaries being offered by commercial airlines.

The air chief marshal said he did not begrudge the high salaries being offered to his pilots by private airlines. But he said he could not release pilots unless they were not required by the IAF.



BBC NEWS | World | South Asia | Indian air force 'lacks planes'

 

[Keysersoze]

Indian Air Force Hawk Takeoff Crash

Indian Air Force HawkIndian officials confirmed on the 29th April that a Hawk Advanced Jet Trainer (AJT) had crashed during takeoff, but added that no serious injury was caused to either of the pilots.

This was the first accident that an Indian Air Force Hawk had been involved in.

The Air Force jet, according to the officials, crashed into a wall immediately after taking off from Bidar Air Base, Karnataka. Just how much damage occurred to the airframe is not yet known.

"Barely seconds after liftoff, there was apparently some technical snag”, one official said.

“One pilot ejected, while the other came down with the aircraft. Fortunately, none of them was seriously injured.”
Indian Hawk Order

Four years ago, India placed an order with the Hawk’s maker – BAE Systems – for the delivery of 66 of the type.

So far, ten are in service.

These ten are from an initial batch of 24 which are being delivered as complete airframes direct from BAE.

The remaining 42 are to be made locally by India’s HAL (Hindustan Aeronautics Limited) firm.

The Indian Air Force is proposing to acquire 40 more Hawks in a $1.25 billion dollar deal.
Air Force Hawks Grounded

After the crash, a grounding was imposed on the Indian Air Force’s nine other Hawks, pending completion of a investigation into what happened.

In a statement, BAE said it would be “inappropriate to speculate on the cause of the incident” until the investigation’s end.

"We will fully support IAF and the defence ministry in any investigation they undertake", a spokesman for the firm added.
61 Crashes, 30 Pilots Killed: Antony

On the same day that details emerged on the Hawk crash, A.K Antony, Indian Defence Minister, told Parliament that, since 2003, 61 Indian Air Force aircraft had been involved in crashes.

30 pilots, he added, had been killed.

"The main reasons behind these crashes were human error and technical faults, and continuous effort is under way in the Indian Air Force to enhance and upgrade flight safety", Antony said.

Source – Armed Forces International’s Aviation Expert

Hawk Advanced Jet Trainer Crashes at Bidar Air Base, India

 

[Myth_buster_1]

From what i know, PAF had 40 F-16s starting from 1983. How did that reduce to 32??? So, 8 crashed???

1 got shot down by a wingman and 2 got hit by wild boars on the runway during takeoff while the rest crashed due to technical fault.

 

[p2prada]

Simple fact is that according to reports The IAF has not been able to to maintain their fleet. Whereas the F-16's have been flying without any problems, despite sanctions. And I am quite sure that they having maintained a complex aircraft (Despite what you think the F-16 was and is a complex aircraft to maintain) and would have no problems doing so.

Nearly 20% of Indian Air Force (IAF) pilots are doing desk jobs because of a shortage of planes, the BBC has learnt.

Classified documents seen by the BBC show that in all about a third of the IAF's 2,500 pilots have been assigned ground and administrative duties.

Of these, 450 fit and trained pilots simply lack planes, the documents say.

Growing numbers of IAF pilots have been refused permission to quit in recent months. The Indian Air Force had "no comment" on the BBC's findings.

The IAF has about 790 aircraft in total, including 340 fighter planes.

Only half the fleet is available at any given time while the rest are being serviced, the documents show.

By 2010 the air forces' transport fleet will be reduced by nearly 40%.

The IAF, which currently has 34 squadrons, plans to reduce that number to 28 by 2013.

Poor utilisation

Some of the pilots put on ground and administrative jobs by the force spoke to the BBC.

They said the jobs they had been given contradicted claims by senior officials that pilots who wanted to leave the IAF could not do so as it would create a shortage of pilots.

"Whatever the authorities might say, the fact is that the air force is overstaffed in terms of pilots," one of the pilots, who has served in the IAF for 15 years, told the BBC.

This was despite the IAF spending millions of rupees on pilot training, he said.

Another serving pilot with more than a decade of service said: "In every air force station, you would find fully competent and medically fit pilots posted to various ground administrative jobs.

"The average utilisation rate of pilots in terms of flying hours per month is very low, as much as five to six hours a month," he added.

Earlier this year, the chief of the Indian Air Force told the BBC he was aware that some pilots wanted to leave his force, although he said the numbers were much lower than reported.

Air Chief Marshal SP Tyagi put it down to India's booming civil aviation industry and the lucrative salaries being offered by commercial airlines.

The air chief marshal said he did not begrudge the high salaries being offered to his pilots by private airlines. But he said he could not release pilots unless they were not required by the IAF.



BBC NEWS | World | South Asia | Indian air force 'lacks planes'

Have to agree with the report.
we have 100 mig-29s and mirage-2000 being upgraded.
Most of the Mig-21, 23, 25 and 27 have been grounded or phased out.

the only ones flying are around 50MKIs, 180 Mig-21bison and all the jags.

Future orders include 200 MRCA and 200+ PAKFA speculated after the completion of the MRCA.

 

[blain2]

Have to agree with the report.
we have 100 mig-29s and mirage-2000 being upgraded.
Most of the Mig-21, 23, 25 and 27 have been grounded or phased out.

the only ones flying are around 50MKIs, 180 Mig-21bison and all the jags.

Future orders include 200 MRCA and 200+ PAKFA speculated after the completion of the MRCA.

I would not be so optimistic about 180 Bisons flying. Bison's serviceability rate has been reported to be around 50%.

 

[EagleEyes]

Future orders include 200 MRCA and 200+ PAKFA speculated after the completion of the MRCA.

Honey, Its 128 MRCA and PAKFA is likely to be less than that.

 

[p2prada]

Vintage or not, the point I was addressing is the experience dealing with twin-engined aircraft. Of which PAF has plenty. Your other points about stuff like challenges with FBW etc. are also rudimentary for an Air Force like the PAF.

And yes I am comparing F-16A/B (FBW started with the F-16s in case you were not aware) with the MKI as difficult as it may be for you to agree with. The complexity of the systems on the F-16 is just as high as that of any other aircraft around. The supply chain, the LRUs etc. etc. are as complicated as they get. The newer aircraft like Raptor etc. are actually easier to maintain than the contemporary teen series (F-15, F-16 and F/A-18).

Comparing an aircraft's superior capabilities on paper does not make the aircraft a more or less complicated aircraft. Some due to their design are inherently hard to support, others are easier. Also complexity is not a virtue either, I am just telling you the stop thinking that MKIs are something grand or brand new to aviation. What is in the MKI is in others. The TVC would require more maintenance but the avionics, parts, propulsion in Western platforms has always been just as or more challenging than their Russian counterparts.

I mainly meant to complications in flying. the F-16 is said to be one of the easiest to fly while the MKI is not so easy. the maintainance part is for the twin engined aircraft, where F-16 is single engined

the MKI has 9 moving parts->2 ailerons, 1 rudder, 2 TVC nozzles, 2 canards, 2 wing flaps
making it more complex to fly. For eg: TVC equipped EF-2000 with canards. Complex to fly.

My original quote:

So, what i meant was PAF lacks training capability for newer generation engines with fighters which have more moving parts(read MKI) "as of now."

 

[p2prada]

I would not be so optimistic about 180 Bisons flying. Bison's serviceability rate has been reported to be around 50%.

They have only recently been upgraded, Any links saying the same.

 

[Keysersoze]

Honey, Its 128 MRCA and PAKFA is likely to be less than that.

Wow the numbers keep creeping up lol. And actually the 50 MKI's are not all in the air.

 

[shehbazi2001]

Have to agree with the report.
we have 100 mig-29s and mirage-2000 being upgraded.
Most of the Mig-21, 23, 25 and 27 have been grounded or phased out.

the only ones flying are around 50MKIs, 180 Mig-21bison and all the jags.

Future orders include 200 MRCA and 200+ PAKFA speculated after the completion of the MRCA.

I remember that Mig-27s were upgraded just a few years ago and its amazing if they are grounded or phased out. The plans were to retire Mig-23s and old Mig-21s. Then there were some reports of the retirement of Mig-25 but Mig-27 it must be new development.