Pakistan has been offered the Chinese 4th generation J-11 (SU27)

[IceCold]

I think once pakistan decides to buy this bird from china, china will bring the russians into the contract with contracts given to both russain and chinese firms. As mxiong mentioned about Shenyang's incapability to manufacture high numbers, it will be a mix order and this way russians wont complaint either, besides russia will not have to bear any pressure from the indian side knowning that china is selling and not russia.

 

[Neo]

Here's an interesting dialogue between Officer of Engineers and some Indian members from a sister forum, WAB.
OoE has earned his reputation as a knowledgeable analyst on Chinese Military Hardware, this is what he wrote about JF-17 last week:

Guess what? Just a few posts back somebody quoted the LCA to be a better craft than the JF17. Weird isn't it?
A bastardised project with a wonderful Russian engine.

Not a valid comparison, Major. The JF-17 is deployed. The LCA is not. Therefore, no comparison is valid until we see the LCA in its final form.

Correct but then again LCA would be a lot better than Mig21's and we all know that JF-17 is based largely on Mig21. So whatever form LCA takes, it would still be better than JF-17[FC-1].

LCA even if deployed in its present configuration, is still better than FC-1. Dont you think so

Depends on who you talk to. The Russians are saying the JF-17/FC-1 is the MiG-33. They sold the designs to China.

The PLA, who doesn't want this bird, are saying that it's the SUPER-7.

I really don't know how to compare the two. I'm not a birdbrain but both planes can perform beyond human endurance. In other words, the pilot would give out long before the plane does. So, it comes down to other factors such as avionics and weapons load. Just by the similar size of the two birds, the performance would be similar and while one may be better in one area and inferior in another, I think it would balance out one way or the other.

My birdbrain pals, however, all stipulated that you cannot compare planes until they're actually deployed. Case in point is the difference between the YF-17 and the F-18 superbug. Going in the opposite direction is the J-6/MiG-19 to the Q/A-5.

No the MiG 33 is the original name given to the MiG29M which looks nothing like the FC-1

cheers

No, not that one. Project R33.

R33 was the soviet answer to the F-16. China bought and modified the design.

Courtesy from WAB
Link: How Potent is LCA - Page 2 - World Affairs Board

 

[sodocpkgj]

guys what do you think about pak buying j11s instead of j10s.i think that will make pak airforce 1 of the best.

 

[Muradk]

guys what do you think about pak buying j11s instead of j10s.i think that will make pak airforce 1 of the best.

I thought we were one of the best. Right now J-10 is on our list and J-11 is not, yes in future we might. J-10 when it enters PAF the numbers will automatically go up from 36 to 50. The potential of this plane is yet to be seen on a open platform.

 

[EagleEyes]

OoE is very bias in my opinion even when he tries to be a neutral Chinese defense expert. IMO, he is not going to believe JF-17 will be in service with the PLAAF until he sees the pictures.

 

[Jliu]

I really doubt J-11B will be available for export in the short future, because even PLAAF is complaining about Shenyang's incapability to manufacture enough J-11B within the time frame (before J-xx coming out) to accommodate the urgent domestic demand for heavy-weight long-range multi-role fighters. Besides such move will unnecessarily undermine the Sino-Russo alliance against USA which remains paramount for China's strategic interests.

What alliance?

The Russians dislike and fear the Chinese and vice versa. There is merely a strong convergence of interests driving cooperation.

It is the same case with Pakistan and the PRC. No matter how many on this forum and in both countries believe in "friends" there are only interests. Now while both peoples may not despise each other observe when the US offered India the nuclear energy deal back in 2006 Pakistan wanted the same deal from the PRC when Pres. Hu was in Islamabad.

The answer was a flat no.

 

[Jliu]

guys what do you think about pak buying j11s instead of j10s.i think that will make pak airforce 1 of the best.

Merely procuring a platform does not make your air force one of the best. You confuse with platform based performance vs systems performance. Systems based forces incorporate advanced situational awareness and C4ISR leveraging platforms and a variety of assets to achieve battlespace dominance.

Take the IAF on the Western Theatre for example. They are a developing AF that has effectively leveraged network centric capabilities to create an integrated redundant system of SAMs, fighters, AWCS, EW and AAA on your border. If you recall the 2004/5 COPE India DACT, the upgraded Mig-21 Bisons of the IAF gave the USAF F-15s a run for their money in BVR leveraging off their Phalcon AWACS.

Procuring the J11 serves no purpose at all, PAF is better off applying incremental block upgrades to the J-10 and procuring large numbers of JF-17 with F-16 in the strike role with additional Erieye platforms to ensure continuity of coverage.

 

[p2prada]

I thought we were one of the best. Right now J-10 is on our list and J-11 is not, yes in future we might. J-10 when it enters PAF the numbers will automatically go up from 36 to 50. The potential of this plane is yet to be seen on a open platform.

Pakistan doesnot even have a decent aircraft for point defence against BVR equipped IAF let alone a capable strike group.

It is no longer the man behind the machine, but machines supporting other machines. Even IAF is a moderate airforce though we are the fourth largest.

What makes an airforce powerful (or in other words "one of the best") is based on how much intelligence can be collected and used effectively.

Thats where AWACs, satellites, "dedicated jamming aircraft"(like EA6 and EA18G) come into play. First shot, First kill is the mantra. Unfortunately, IAF still lacks this capability and so does the PAF.

PAF still lacks BVR capability. Plus the old F-16s are still sitting in their hangars requiring upgrades which have no BVR capability either. the JF-17s have still not been integrated with the SD-10 for production.


Getting back to the topic,
Pak PM told parliament that there will be no more hike in defence expenditure for sometime. How will that affect PAF's ability to induct more fighters that includes JF-17, J-10 and the flanker clones???[plus the F-16s which will obvioulsy get first priority]

Even if the fighters are bought....wont maintaining be a problem. Life cycle costs are as high as the fighter costs..sometimes higher.

If the J-11s are procured, which trainers will be purchased for training pilots.

 

[araz]

Hmmm... I expected more as u were an air commodore. I dont mean to be rude even if it does sound like that. But, an air com being so naive is really upsetting.

Pakistan doesnot even have a decent aircraft for point defence against BVR equipped IAF let alone a capable strike group.

It is no longer the man behind the machine, but machines supporting other machines. Even IAF is a moderate airforce though we are the fourth largest.

What makes an airforce powerful (or in other words "one of the best") is based on how much intelligence can be collected and used effectively.

Thats where AWACs, satellites, "dedicated jamming aircraft"(like EA6 and EA18G) come into play. First shot, First kill is the mantra. Unfortunately, IAF still lacks this capability and so does the PAF.

PAF still lacks BVR capability. Plus the old F-16s are still sitting in their hangars requiring upgrades which have no BVR capability either. the JF-17s have still not been integrated with the SD-10 for production.


Getting back to the topic,
Pak PM told parliament that there will be no more hike in defence expenditure for sometime. How will that affect PAF's ability to induct more fighters that includes JF-17, J-10 and the flanker clones???[plus the F-16s which will obvioulsy get first priority]

Even if the fighters are bought....wont maintaining be a problem. Life cycle costs are as high as the fighter costs..sometimes higher.

If the J-11s are procured, which trainers will be purchased for training pilots.

You are being rude to a senior PAF officer so stop it.
Just because you have not heard of a BVR capable platform in PAF does not mean there is 'nt one and if you want to learn about it read through the various threads on this forum to enhance your awareness. Read up on the Grifo radar on F7 pgs and Mica missile .
Now back to the topic, I like you agree that it seems unlikely in the current economic and acquisition environment that PAF will extend itself with another platform,especially when it has its hands full with Thunder, F16 and J10.
However, if the J11 is ever bought, ther is a thought in certain quarters that it will have a Chinese origin engine. This might bring commonality into the picture and make the purchase a viable one at some point in the future.
We know that lifetime maintenance costs are higher than the cost of the plane and most contracts are negotiated keeping that in mind.
You are wrong in your assumption that just because PAF buys J11 ,suddenly all trainers it has will become defunct and it will have to buy new ones. For highnd assetts , PAF utilizes dual seater aircrafts for acclamatisation. In any case experienced pilots are generally chosen for conversion to newer platforms.
Regards
Araz

 

[p2prada]

Just because you have not heard of a BVR capable platform in PAF does not mean there is 'nt one and if you want to learn about it read through the various threads on this forum to enhance your awareness. Read up on the Grifo radar on F7 pgs and Mica missile .

You are wrong in your assumption that just because PAF buys J11 ,suddenly all trainers it has will become defunct and it will have to buy new ones. For highnd assetts , PAF utilizes dual seater aircrafts for acclamatisation.
Regards
Araz

Only Mirage with the rose upgrades are capable of BVR. Pak supposedly developed the H-4 BVRAAM....but i dont see that in the discussions.
If the SD-10 does not materialize soon, then ur only "capable" platform for BVR is the F-16 block 52 which will take time.

In any case experienced pilots are generally chosen for conversion to newer platforms.

Maybe so. But that is only initially. Pak has never had a flanker like aircraft. the fighter is large, powerful etc etc than any pak might fly for decades. U need to have supersonic trainers cause of its demanding nature. I m not sure which trainer is used by china, maybe that will do.
In india, experienced pilots are no longer the criteria for flying the MKIs. the HAWKs have helped a lot, so much so that, any rookie pilot can start of with the MKI, which was not the case 3 years ago. Kudos to the Brits.
In India a rookie is the pilot while the experieced pilot sits behind, in case of the MKI.

You are being rude to a senior PAF officer so stop it.

If he was a Pak teenager and made such remarks, I wouldnt have said anything cause it only speaks of his patriotism and not of his knowledge. But a retired air comm, who has dealt with some of the most classified information that he might not even be able to share in this forum, comments like a teenager speaks for itself.
I hope he would just be a little more careful while being sarcastic or serious.

If he is sarcastic, i will take back all my words.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

P2Prada:

Murad is not taking back anything.

You have misunderstood the context of his remarks.

Continue on this childish tangent and expect to get shipped out. One thing we do not tolerate is disrespect towards our veterans.

This thread is about the J-11 acquisition. Limit yourself to responding to the on-topic posts.

Anything not related to the potential J-11 acquisition from you will be deleted.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Only Mirage with the rose upgrades are capable of BVR. Pak supposedly developed the H-4 BVRAAM....but i dont see that in the discussions.

The Pakistan Air Force currently has the Block 15 F-16A/B model in operation, which has an upgraded APG-66 radar that brings it close to the MLU (Mid-life Update) radar technology. The main advantage is the ability to use the AIM-7 Sparrow and AIM-120 AMRAAM. Furthermore, the radar is capable of sorting out tight formations of aircraft and has a 15%-20% range increase over previous models. All the earlier F-16s were brought up to OCU standards and have received the Falcon UP structural modification package.

If the SD-10 does not materialize soon, then ur only "capable" platform for BVR is the F-16 block 52 which will take time.

WTF?? First Jf-17 combat ready squdron is to be expected anytime this year. and SD-10 will be acquired before AMRAAM and block 52+..

Maybe so. But that is only initially. Pak has never had a flanker like aircraft. the fighter is large, powerful etc etc than any pak might fly for decades. U need to have supersonic trainers cause of its demanding nature. I m not sure which trainer is used by china, maybe that will do.

Twin engine MR is not a big deal for pilots when they already exibit exelency in flying single engine fighters.. you may not be aware that handful of PAF pilots have experience in flying KSA F-15s and in this case if PAF is interusted in J-11 at all PAF already has experience in flying J-11s.. not a big deal..

In india, experienced pilots are no longer the criteria for flying the MKIs. the HAWKs have helped a lot, so much so that, any rookie pilot can start of with the MKI, which was not the case 3 years ago. Kudos to the Brits.
In India a rookie is the pilot while the experieced pilot sits behind, in case of the MKI.

lol thats funny.. i think IAF should look ahead of traning monkeys to fly MKIs if its that easy to fly and why risk a human life?

 

[p2prada]

The Pakistan Air Force currently has the Block 15 F-16A/B model in operation, which has an upgraded APG-66 radar that brings it close to the MLU (Mid-life Update) radar technology. The main advantage is the ability to use the AIM-7 Sparrow and AIM-120 AMRAAM. Furthermore, the radar is capable of sorting out tight formations of aircraft and has a 15%-20% range increase over previous models. All the earlier F-16s were brought up to OCU standards and have received the Falcon UP structural modification package.

Have PAF taken delivery of the AMRAAMs. That would be an interesting read.

WTF?? First Jf-17 combat ready squdron is to be expected anytime this year. and SD-10 will be acquired before AMRAAM and block 52+..

It actually takes 3 years to fully integrate a BVR onto a capable platform. The chinese have started their SD-10 tests only recently.

Twin engine MR is not a big deal for pilots when they already exibit exelency in flying single engine fighters.. you may not be aware that handful of PAF pilots have experience in flying KSA F-15s and in this case if PAF is interusted in J-11 at all PAF already has experience in flying J-11s.. not a big deal..

Again, only your best pilots must have flown the aircrafts after years of experience and countless hours of flight time. Obviously, its like fish taking to water. I m referring to the numerous rookies who will receive training. What are they gonna train on. U dont need to train on a twin engine MR, u need a supersonic trainer.

lol thats funny.. i think IAF should look ahead of traning monkeys to fly MKIs if its that easy to fly and why risk a human life?

Nice sense of humour.....
The indian high command were pretty happy with the training capabilities of the HAWK and the Brits. 75 rookies were sent to Brit to train. With the exception of 5, who were not even allowed to fly due to medical and other short comings, all passed and most graduated to fly the MKI.
FYI, the MKI has the most number of movable parts in a fighter. That includes the TVC nozzles.

Heres a link

:: Bharat-Rakshak.com - Indian Military News Headlines ::

News Release
INDIAN HAWK CREATES HISTORY

05 Feb 2008 | Ref. 041/2008

Indian Hawk Creates History

Indian Hawk Creates History

Brough, United Kingdom. – Yesterday, a BAE Systems Hawk Advanced Jet Trainer (AJT) destined for the Indian Air Force, became the first ever Hawk aircraft to make its maiden flight from the Brough site.

The jet, the 22nd aircraft out of 24 being built in the UK for the Indian Air Force (IAF), takes its place in history as the first Hawk aircraft designed, manufactured, fully assembled, tested and to make its maiden flight from the Brough site, despite the site producing Hawks for over 30 years.

The history making flight is just the latest of recent successes on the Indian Hawk programme, which sees BAE Systems delivering a total training package to the IAF. Prior to Christmas the first four Hawks were delivered to their new home at Air Force Station Bidar with the next few aircraft scheduled to arrive in the next few weeks.

In addition to the supply of the 24 UK built aircraft, with 42 being built under licence by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd in Bangalore, the contract also sees BAE Systems develop, construct, install and commission four computer aided training devices: two cockpit procedures trainers, a flight training device and an avionics part task trainer, these combined with the Computer Aided Learning System provide the required classroom training to support the IAF’s training requirement.

In parallel to delivery of aircraft and training devices, BAE Systems, in partnership with the RAF, has delivered a training programme that will see on its completion in mid-2008, over 75 IAF pilots trained on the current RAF Hawk fleet at RAF Valley. Many of those who have completed the course have returned to India and gone directly onto the IAF’s most sophisticated frontline aircraft – a testament to the skill of the pilots and the training they received during their time at RAF Valley.

But the training being provided isn’t restricted to aircrew. A number of the Hawk AJTs that will be supplied to the IAF have also been used to train around 100 IAF engineering officers and technicians in BAE Systems’ Technical Training Academy at Warton who will support the aircraft when it enters service.

BAE Systems has also completed conversion training of experienced IAF Flying Instructors to become instructor pilots on the Indian Hawk – these instructors will train the Indian Air Force’s next generation of frontline pilots.

Mark Parkinson, Managing Director, Training Solutions, BAE Systems said: “The first flight of an Indian Hawk from our Brough site is another step forward on us delivering a total training solution geared to the specific requirements of the Indian Air Force. The successful delivery of this programme, on schedule, is a prime example of BAE Systems’ capabilities in developing and managing complex major programmes to meet the needs of our global customer base. ”

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

P2prada:

I think it would be reasonable to assume that the PAF would also look into acquiring trainers if it did make a decision to purchase the J-11.

At this point even the J-11 purchase is speculation.

 

[p2prada]

P2prada:

I think it would be reasonable to assume that the PAF would also look into acquiring trainers if it did make a decision to purchase the J-11.

At this point even the J-11 purchase is speculation.

Exactly my point.

Pak is gonna induct 200+ JF-17, 50+ F-16, 50+ J-10, all in the next few years plus upgrades to other fighters. Along with that PAF will have to build infrastucture to maintain and also provide round the clock training to match india's flight training.
All this while the country is reeling under pressure due to the war on terror, internal strife and the effects of the earthquake. I mean, can PAK handle the costs.