Pakistan gaining military edge over India

[Awesome]

A very important factor most people forget when opening such fanboy threads is the ability and resources of a country to sustain war......

Compared to India, Pakistan cannot sustain a war for more than a week at max in its current scenario unless things change drastically for Pak.....

Factors such as fuel reserves, ability of the navy to resist a blockade etc are game changers that can make or break the situation no matter how potent your offence or defence....

How will those F-16s fly without fuel?

At this point, the PA maybe at par in capabilities to IA, however, until the PAF and PN can close in this gap, one cannot be confident that Pak will be able to sustain this battle.

The sustainability of war are all non-Pakistani estimates. Even our tribal areas have show they can sustain war indefinitely.

With Pakistan India will never have a limited war if it tries to go in. Like India's Lahore misadventure in 1965 it will find that it will find enemy combatants everywhere.

This is a unique ability of Pakistan and the people ready to fight against India would be limitless in Pakistan.

 

[Peshwa]

The sustainability of war are all non-Pakistani estimates. Even our tribal areas have show they can sustain war indefinitely.

With Pakistan India will never have a limited war if it tries to go in. Like India's Lahore misadventure in 1965 it will find that it will find enemy combatants everywhere.

This is a unique ability of Pakistan and the people ready to fight against India would be limitless in Pakistan.

We are talking about two completely different scenarios....

You speak of a scenario where India is in occupation and is facing a Iraq style resistance from the people....
This is where I agree with you.....The lax gun laws in Pakistan means that one can consider every household in Pakistan to possess a gun....
This implies that if India were in a position where it had gained control of Pakistani territories (keeping nukes out of the picture)......IA could possibly face resistance from the locals.....

Nevertheless.....Talking about a conventional war between armed forces is what I was referring to....

Asim...Question:

Pakistan's lax gun laws....How do you think this contributes to the lawlessness of areas like KP and to the level of militancy in the country esp wrt to TTP?
Dont you feel something needs to be done about this?

 

[GentlemanObserver]

^^ I know your question is addressed to Asim but in relations to:

Pakistan's lax gun laws....How do you think this contributes to the lawlessness of areas like KP and to the level of militancy in the country esp wrt to TTP?
Dont you feel something needs to be done about this?

Pakistan has one of the strict licensing criteria:

To own a weapon you need the (Computerized Arms License System (CALS)): if you have the old paper copy, this will be upgraded to the CALS.

Furthermore here is a copy of the Pakistani Arms Ordianace:
THE [PAKISTAN] ARMS ORDINANCE, 1965

It is an arrestable offence to do the following:
To brandish a weapon in public
To carry a weapon without a licence
To carry a weapon(s) or ammunition(s) of prohibited bore
To carry concealed weapons

Anyone caught carrying an un licensed weapon in suspicious circumstances is liable to be prosecuted under the arms ordinance of 1965 and the Anti Terrorism Act Section (6) - Para A.
Pakistan Anti-Terrorism (Amendment)Ordinance, 1999

In 2010 the government extended the ATA to PATA: NWFP(KPK and Trial Belts): Anti-terrorism amendment ordinance extended to PATA - Breaking News, Pakistan News, National, World, Business, Cricket, Education, Health, Stock Exchange | OnePakistan.com

 

[notorious_eagle]

A very important factor most people forget when opening such fanboy threads is the ability and resources of a country to sustain war......

Compared to India, Pakistan cannot sustain a war for more than a week at max in its current scenario unless things change drastically for Pak.....

Factors such as fuel reserves, ability of the navy to resist a blockade etc are game changers that can make or break the situation no matter how potent your offence or defence....

How will those F-16s fly without fuel?

At this point, the PA maybe at par in capabilities to IA, however, until the PAF and PN can close in this gap, one cannot be confident that Pak will be able to sustain this battle.

And how did you arrive to this conclusion that Pakistan is only able to fight against India for a week , you might call other fanboys but this a pure fanboy claim from your side my friend. I don't know if you are aware of this but Pakistan Army maintains 45 days worth of supplies in its reserves in case of a war. You would be surprised how secure and efficient our supply lines are for our Eastern borders; the GHQ is not full of idiots, our Generals have learned their mistakes and have made sure that Pakistan Armed Forces don't run out supplies.

Gone are the days of long and static wars that were fought in World War 1 and 2, the next war between Pakistan and India is going to be short but severely intense. Don't worry about Pakistan running out of fuel and ammunition, this is just pure Indian fanboy wet dreams. The IAF and IN are no doubt superior than their counterparts but the question is do they have complete superiority. When IAF crosses over the border they will be fighting under our rules and under our own skies, this has been discussed many times and that is why the IAF has never dared to cross the border. Same thing for the IN, PN can obviously not engage them in the open seas but they are more than capable enough off defending own shores. We have enough ships, subs, P3's and Anti Ship Missiles to ensure that they IN does not cross our waters.

No one here is saying that Pakistan's Armed Forces are superior to those of India, but they are more than capable enough of thwarting any aggression from the Indian side. I am completely confident that Pakistan can sustain a war against India, that is why the Indians didnt act naughty in 2002 and 2008.

 

[S_O_C_O_M]

are you shitting me?

brahmos > babur

su30 > f-16

JF-17 = MIG 29/ Tejas

and we hardly get anything from the US anymore.

There is only enough hardware for defense instead of offense.

^^Where do you get your info from? Indian articles? Please do more research before you post again.

 

[IndianRobo]

The Author is correct On Artillery , But others? What the hell??? Mig 21's and sea harriers are getting Replaced, Its Not only there F-16, but Our Sukhois and Mig 29's are getting Upgrded.... LCA Tejas Is Being made to replace Sea Harriers and Mig 21's along with the MMRCA, With an Additional Procurement of FGFA, Making of AMCA and India Considering USA's Offer of F-35 For Navy.... Stealth Frigates,Nuclear Submarines, 3 Aircraft Carriers.... And an Order of Additional 50 Vessels for the navy

 

[nForce]

China has only responded with respect - The inherent aggressivness of India is a deep concern of all countries that neighbor India, the fact that India spends as much on her war making capablity is sobering. Pakistan's policy has been to deny the Indian the prospect of victory and in doing so Pakistan, at least thus far, has succeeded in ensuring that India's inherent aggressiveness is tempered by the realization that it cannot, even after huge expeditures to build up it's war making capability, be assured of victory.

Indian oficers who serve in captive Kashmir from the lowest to the highest level, it seems have been identified, perhaps consequences will follow, but thus far it seems these consequences have been limited to denying them travel privelages these would like.

China's actions back in 1962 were indeed unexpected.There is no point in denying the fact that IA was ill prepared at that time.But the incident taught us an important lesson.Now IA is in a much better position to respond if duty calls.

BTW,where from did you get the bold part???

If we go by sheer amount then China will take the top position in the region,with a purse of $ 77.95 billion(2010).India spends $ 32.7 billion(2010)and Pakistan spends $ 7.8 billion.

If we go by percentage of GDP then Pakistan takes the top position with 4.5 % of GDP allocated as defence budget.India spends 2.2% and China spends 1.4 %.


Also,did you forget that India is a country 7 times bigger than Pakistan???But India's budget is roughly a little more than 4 times that of Pakistan...So,if we go by amount,and take country size under consideration,then still Pakistan happens to be the bigger spender,with a bigger share on its not so significant GDP too..


If Pakistan's policy is to defend herself and deny Indian victory then the country did a really poor job by starting 4 wars, 2 of them resulting in decisive victories, and 1 of them favouring the Indian side....

 

[AbuSalam]

I m only convinced by one fact out of this article and that is that Pakistan Army/air force's fight against terrorists is gaining them good combat experience , Having been a solider myself and keeping close watch on military developments around the globe i can honestly tell u that a veteran solider is much better placed in combat(even if he has relatively outdated arms) then a fully armed to-the teeth adversary with no combat experience. Indian units fighting against Maoists are (i hope) gaining good experience as well.

Nice to hear some words from a Pro...but what abt fatigue ? don't misunderstand me ..am a layman here.
India's fight against maoist are confined to jungles that is w/o any Army/airforce help.
Pak's combat against ill armed terrorist who have no air cover or radar, can u call this is even sided ?
Any India/ Pak conflict will be more devastating even if no nuke is used,all the force multipliers and multitudes of high tec weapons,and a nations strength in procuring arms even during conflict from other foreign players (Kargil when Israel supplid weapons to INDIA) and a nations sustainability ie to fight a war u need enormous resources..all these factors contribute in war.PLUS either nation simply cannot walk in and conquer a defeated, simply becoze times have changed,thr will be mercenariness hiding among civilians to offer resistance not to forget abt mines and other hidden stuff !!

 

[TaimiKhan]

Pakistan gaining military edge over India ??

What ?? Joke of the Century ??

I believe whoever wrote the piece of art mistook Pakistan for China.

It happens when people go high on good quality weed.

 

[jha]

While India keeps cancelling and re-issuing RFPs endlessly, Pakistan is forging ahead on a war footing. They are ahead of India in the following:-

1. Howitzers

India has been dilly-dallying over artillery guns for close to 30 years since the Bofors scam. Pakistan has inducted U.S. made M-109 howitzers.

Indian Express: United Nations data reveal that delivery of the M-109 A5 self-propelled artillery guns took place last year. The guns were transferred under the US Foreign Military Financing (FMF) programme that was granted to Pakistan for the fight against militant groups on its border with Afghanistan. Experts say these M-109 A5 155 mm howitzers give Pakistan a definite conventional edge over the Indian Army that is years away from induction of similar systems. Full news

2. UAVs
The game changers in the ****** war are the future of any credible Air Force. But PSU infighting delayed India's plan for 4 years. Recent articles on 8ak noted that Pakistan has started drone production with Selex Galileo.

3. Fighter Jets
While our military aircraft crash at a rate of 1.5 a month means a constant grounding of fleets (the Sea Harrier fleet is grounded after last weeks crash), Pakistan is upgrading their F-16s to the latest Block C/D with a little help from Turkey. Russia has also given the go ahead to China to give Pakistan the engines for the JF series fighter aircraft.


4. Motivation
The Pakistani people are united, not by their nationality, but by their religion and their constantly-re-inforced-by-the-mullahs/government view on Kashmir. Add to this the combat experience they are gaining in the ****** war and one can see that they would be a formidable force.

5. Funds
While India's budget is larger thanks to a better economy, Pakistan gets billions in equipment and training from the U.S., China and Islamic sympathisers like Saudi Arabia.

The list could go on to include helicopters, missiles, nuclear weapons. But at least India has the Arihant submarine. Well not exactly. Strategy Page article says that the Arihant was launched without a working reactor to scam the public in to believing that the government has something to show after sinking billions in to those projects.

We need many more articles to get the files moving in the MOD...
Kudos to whoever wrote this...

 

[d14gtc]

While India keeps cancelling and re-issuing RFPs endlessly, Pakistan is forging ahead on a war footing. They are ahead of India in the following:-

1. Howitzers

India has been dilly-dallying over artillery guns for close to 30 years since the Bofors scam. Pakistan has inducted U.S. made M-109 howitzers.

Indian Express: United Nations data reveal that delivery of the M-109 A5 self-propelled artillery guns took place last year. The guns were transferred under the US Foreign Military Financing (FMF) programme that was granted to Pakistan for the fight against militant groups on its border with Afghanistan. Experts say these M-109 A5 155 mm howitzers give Pakistan a definite conventional edge over the Indian Army that is years away from induction of similar systems. Full news

2. UAVs
The game changers in the ****** war are the future of any credible Air Force. But PSU infighting delayed India's plan for 4 years. Recent articles on 8ak noted that Pakistan has started drone production with Selex Galileo.

3. Fighter Jets
While our military aircraft crash at a rate of 1.5 a month means a constant grounding of fleets (the Sea Harrier fleet is grounded after last weeks crash), Pakistan is upgrading their F-16s to the latest Block C/D with a little help from Turkey. Russia has also given the go ahead to China to give Pakistan the engines for the JF series fighter aircraft.


4. Motivation
The Pakistani people are united, not by their nationality, but by their religion and their constantly-re-inforced-by-the-mullahs/government view on Kashmir. Add to this the combat experience they are gaining in the ****** war and one can see that they would be a formidable force.

5. Funds
While India's budget is larger thanks to a better economy, Pakistan gets billions in equipment and training from the U.S., China and Islamic sympathisers like Saudi Arabia.

The list could go on to include helicopters, missiles, nuclear weapons. But at least India has the Arihant submarine. Well not exactly. Strategy Page article says that the Arihant was launched without a working reactor to scam the public in to believing that the government has something to show after sinking billions in to those projects.

..........................really...... thanks for info

 

[Urbanized Greyhound]

Originally Posted by Leviza

View Post

While India keeps cancelling and re-issuing RFPs endlessly, Pakistan is forging ahead on a war footing. They are ahead of India in the following:-

1. Howitzers

India has been dilly-dallying over artillery guns for close to 30 years since the Bofors scam. Pakistan has inducted U.S. made M-109 howitzers.

Indian Express: United Nations data reveal that delivery of the M-109 A5 self-propelled artillery guns took place last year. The guns were transferred under the US Foreign Military Financing (FMF) programme that was granted to Pakistan for the fight against militant groups on its border with Afghanistan. Experts say these M-109 A5 155 mm howitzers give Pakistan a definite conventional edge over the Indian Army that is years away from induction of similar systems. Full news

2. UAVs
The game changers in the ****** war are the future of any credible Air Force. But PSU infighting delayed India's plan for 4 years. Recent articles on 8ak noted that Pakistan has started drone production with Selex Galileo.

3. Fighter Jets
While our military aircraft crash at a rate of 1.5 a month means a constant grounding of fleets (the Sea Harrier fleet is grounded after last weeks crash), Pakistan is upgrading their F-16s to the latest Block C/D with a little help from Turkey. Russia has also given the go ahead to China to give Pakistan the engines for the JF series fighter aircraft.


4. Motivation
The Pakistani people are united, not by their nationality, but by their religion and their constantly-re-inforced-by-the-mullahs/government view on Kashmir. Add to this the combat experience they are gaining in the ****** war and one can see that they would be a formidable force.

5. Funds
While India's budget is larger thanks to a better economy, Pakistan gets billions in equipment and training from the U.S., China and Islamic sympathisers like Saudi Arabia.

The list could go on to include helicopters, missiles, nuclear weapons. But at least India has the Arihant submarine. Well not exactly. Strategy Page article says that the Arihant was launched without a working reactor to scam the public in to believing that the government has something to show after sinking billions in to those projects.

there are gross discrepencies in this article .....point no. 5 is proof that the author's knowledge of geopolitical realities is limited......in the event of an India - pakistan conflict neither the U.S nor Saudi Arabia would risk overt millitary or economic assistance to pakistan....china might but then being a global player and a stakeholder in international stability it would have to face a lot of resistance from the U.S , European union and the like....this will be more and more difficult to ignore as it increasingly connects itself with the western world......

 

[moha199]

currently india is busy in replacing the old soviet tech.

with new US made but trust me this is where USA gets you! No matter how smart you act or work in the end of the day victory is with them since they are the givers and you or we are the takers, this is why Pakistan is trying to be self sufficent and she is doing good job on this, the more you get from USA trust me more you will get in their hands. tell me one nation which is well off with USA and there is none!

 

[karan.1970]

Pakistan gaining military edge over India ??

What ?? Joke of the Century ??

I believe whoever wrote the piece of art mistook Pakistan for China.

It happens when people go high on good quality weed.

I agree. 10 years back this used to be a standard practise to sensationalize the Indo - Pak animosity to get bedget increases etc for the armed forces. The conditions have moved on, but some people refuse to..

 

[Archie]

A few things need to be made clear
1: This is not a genuine article , it was either written by Leviza him/herself or was copy posted from some other forum most likely the sister site of PDF

2: While it is true that we have not prchased a new artillery gun since 1987 , but we have purchased 720 M46 Howitzers from Russia , and have also ordered 340 more . Now these are not 155mm guns but smaller 139 /145 mm , but they were purchased quite cheaply from surplus Russian stocks ,currently they are undergoing upgrade into 155mm guns with range of 39 km , tender for this upgrade was awarded to Soltam of Israel , which has till now upgraded 180 guns and has provided upgrade kits for 400 guns. Government
has placed an order for 145 M777 ultra light howitzer from US , and the contract has been aproved by US Congress ,deal will be formally signed when OBAMA pays a visit
and as far as i remember even pakistan acquired M-109 through surplus US military stock.

3: As far as UAVs are concerned , to say that Pakistan made Falco are better than Israeli Heron , Searcher , Harpy or for that matter even indian made Nishant and Lakshay Drone , well is a gross over statement
Plus Pakistan maintain a fleet of 60 UAVs compared to the following for indian arm forces .
Army
Nishant India reconnaissance UAV 18+
IAI Searcher II Israel reconnaissance UAV 50+
IAI Heron II Israel reconnaissance UAV 100+
Air force
Lakshya PTA India Pilotless Target Aircraft (PTA) 10

IAI Harpy Israel Fire & Forget Radar Emitter Destroyer 10
IAI SearcherII Israel 100+
IAI Heron II Israel Reconnaissance UAV 25+

Navy
IAI Heron II Israel UAV 12
IAI Searcher MkII Israel UAV 18

4: As far as fighter jets are concerned , almost all the crashes in the past few years have been of older Mig21 and Mig27 which are being phased out , India in the last 2 years has retired 76 Mig21 while they have inducted 44 Su30Mki during that period , while this has resulted in sqd stength falling from 34 sqd to 32 sqd , but it has not affected the fire power of the airforce
Another 54 Mig21 will retire by 2012 being replaced by 40 Su30mki and 20 Lca Tejas
Now as far as Pakistan Upgrading its F16 fleet , well they presently operate 45 f16 and have just taken delivery of 3 F16 Blk52 while remaining 15 will be inducted by end of year , they currently have 42 older Blk15/25 F16 which they will be upgrading to Blk40 standard not Blk 50 as has been assumed becoz there are certain airframe modifications between Blk40 and Blk52
Over all PAF has some 430 Fighters comprising 22 Sqds out of which around 73 aircrafts (48 F16 + 25 JF17) are actually 4th generation
Compared to IAF which has around 650 Fighters comprising 32 Sqds out of which around 237 aircrafts(124 SU30mki + 62 Mig29 + 51 Mirage 2000) are 4th or 4+ generation

5: As far as helicopters are concerned
Pak army has 36
Paf has 38
Pak navy has 24
compared to indian arm forces which operate a total of 650+ helicopters(Army 180 , IAF 314 , Navy 127 , Coast guard 23 , BSF 17)