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Pakistan Faces Threat From Terrorism, Not India:US

since when has PA been dependant upon directions from GoP to take "necessary steps"?
In most issues, since the elections and a largely apolitical Gen. Kayani took over.

Blain has explained the domestic Pakistani dynamics and tensions restraining the Army quite well, on two threads now, and if you still can't understand then I can't help you.

And could you refrain from the trite comments please.
 
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You know what you sound like...

"We the Pakistani's have huge libido and can not control it. We will continue to rape the rest of the world until we are satisfied. Do not resist us or else we will blow up and you will die with us."

Every Pakistani seems to be throwing that threat since Zardari did it in Japan. Its like the whole nation is a big suicide bomber.

PS: I do have miles to go and am moving towards it but its high time for you and your country to atleast start the journey.
Try offering a rebuttal next time instead of this tripe.
 
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In most issues, since the elections and a largely apolitical Gen. Kayani took over.

Blain has explained the domestic Pakistani dynamics and tensions restraining the Army quite well, on two threads now, and if you still can't understand then I can't help you.

And could you refrain from the trite comments please.

hardly enlightened would be your approach at times be too.

The question was specifically asked and had relevance. If the threat posed is recognised as clear and imminent then there is nothing stopping PA from engaging the armed hordes that are now moving freely within Swat and Buner. And the aim to limit them to Swat is all the more hilarious as that means you are already willing to conceed one district for peace. And there the writ of GoP is finished.

If GoP has not the guts to take the necessary political decision I think PA an take the steps needed to address the problem without fear of any sort of condemnation. On the contrary, the international community will be very vocal in their support for the same. So its a false contention that he (COAS) has relegated himself to the role of following the political directive.
 
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If GoP has not the guts to take the necessary political decision I think PA an take the steps needed to address the problem without fear of any sort of condemnation.
Condemnation from the international community is not what is driving policy in Pakistan - domestic dynamics are.

For the PA to take action on its own once more retards the development of democracy in Pakistan. The parties in the ruling coalition were elected by Pakistanis and are alone entrusted with the responsibility of making these decisions.

As I said before, the Army needs to follow the policies formulated by the GoP - intervention by the Military should only occur if the incapacitation of the GoP is imminent.

The military needs to follow the constitution and chain of command.
 
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Nice letter published in "The News" from Juma Khan Sufi of Peshawar ...

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They say... we say...

They say India is our enemy. We say it is a potential friend.

They say India has always been after the dismemberment of Pakistan. We say that it is you and your actions which were/are the cause of dismemberment.

They say that India fought five wars against us. We say that all the wars (1948, 1965, 1971, Siachen and Kargil) were initiated by you.

They say we won all the wars — we say you lost all of them.

They say we are part of Middle East. We say you are part of South Asia and Indian sub-continent.

They say Urdu and Hindi are two diametrically opposite languages. We say that they are two sister languages feeding on the same stuff.

They say the invasion of Mohammad bin Qasim was precursor to the state of Pakistan. We say that you are part and parcel of Maurya, Kushan, Khilji, Lodhi, Mughal and the British Indian dynasties and empires.

They say we need a separate identity. We say identity cannot be carved out from the distortion of history.

They say danger emanates from the eastern borders. We say the danger emanates from within.

They say the Taliban are our assets. We say they are your mortal enemies.

They say Hindus and Muslims cannot coexist peacefully. We say they coexisted peacefully for hundreds of years.

They say we need strategic depth in Afghanistan to fight against India. We say you need economic depth.

They say that the world is after us. We say that even your friends like China and Iran complain about you now.

They say that we cannot fight against our own people and the Taliban are our own people. We say that you already fought against your own people in Bengal and Balochistan.

They say that Balochistan insurgency is foreign-inspired. We say it is the result of your continuous denial of Baloch rights.

They say America is destabilising us with drone attacks. We say that you are impotent to take on your enemies head-on and forbid their incursion into Afghanistan.

They say that further increasing the capacity of the security and military establishment can effectively combat all internal and external threats. We say that real democracy and economic power of the country can combat this better.

They say we need a nuclear deterrence. We say then what is the need for stationing most of the troops on the eastern borders?

They say that you are traitors. We say we are the real patriots.

They say we can continue to run with the hares and hunt with the hounds. We say you need a paradigm shift.

They say fend for yourselves. We say defend us because we are taxpayers.

Juma Khan Sufi

Peshawar
 
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Thank you very, very much. That gentleman may have written the definitive reader contribution and, likely, the definitive op-ed about Pakistan.

Could he any more succinctly nail this story?

WOW!!
 
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Nice letter published in "The News" from Juma Khan Sufi of Peshawar ...

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They say... we say...

They say India is our enemy. We say it is a potential friend.

They say India has always been after the dismemberment of Pakistan. We say that it is you and your actions which were/are the cause of dismemberment. .......................

Juma Khan Sufi

Peshawar

Absolutely amazing & a pleasure to read. Is the Pakistani administration listening?
 
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Absolutely amazing & a pleasure to read. Is the Pakistani administration listening?
Not really - hyperbole and stereotyping galore. We all have our 'peace and love on earth' hippies completely detached from reality.

Was the Indian Administration listening to the Indian writers and intellectuals arguing for India to accept a plebiscite formula in some shape or form in the aftermath of the protests in Kashmir?

In terms of tangible steps actually showing sincerity on India's part towards peace with Pakistan, the UNSC guaranteed rights of the Kashmiris and settling conflicts, acting on those ideas would have done so much more.

Here is the 'peace and love' from the Indian side, from a notable Indian writer.
When attacked, we must hit back​

Consumed as we are with the hurly-burly of the General Election, we may have lost sight of an important development in our neighbourhood. As the Pakistan government tries to persuade the Taliban to retreat from its latest encampment a mere 100 kilometers away from Islamabad, the world — and Washington, in particular — has finally come around to the view that Pakistan is on the brink of becoming the next Afghanistan.

As the steady slide into Talibanisation continues, it is also clear that we are at a watershed moment in our policy towards Pakistan. We need to decide, once and for all, how we are going to treat our north-western neighbour.

There have been two broad strands in India's attitude to Pakistan. The first is the view of much of the media, many liberals, and a large chunk of the political establishment.

This view has as its basis the proposition: “A strong and stable Pakistan is in India's best interests.”

My own view is that the “strong and stable Pakistan is in India’s best interests” proposition has failed. And how does India help bring this about? Well, according to proponents of this view, we must extend support to the democratic process in Pakistan and help civilian governments. We should encourage people-to-people contacts and abandon the Pakistan-is-an-enemy rhetoric. We must recognise that Indians and Pakistanis are really the same people, divided by unscrupulous politicians.

The contrary view is the position of the Army, the intelligence establishment and many security analysts. This view states that a strong and stable Pakistan is not necessarily in India’s best interests. A weakened Pakistan is often the best guarantor of peace. For instance, after the 1971 defeat, when Bangladesh broke away, Pakistan did India no harm for nearly two decades.

According to this view, we should never let our guard down, put no faith in the so-called brotherliness of the Pakistani masses, distrust every civilian politician and recognise that the Pakistan army’s raison d’etre is the alleged threat from India. Proponents of this view say that the only language the Pakistani establishment understands is strength and the best way to check the threat posed by Pakistan is by running clandestine operations inside that country and financing such local trouble-makers as the Baluchis and the MQM.

Of the two views, the first one has held sway for many years. The security establishment is treated with scorn by many educated Indians and its hawkish views are dismissed with contempt. During his brief stint as Prime Minister, Inder Gujral even asked the R&AW to roll up its clandestine networks within Pakistan, one reason why Indian intelligence now finds it so difficult to get accurate information out of that country.

But with the current situation in Pakistan threatening to spin out of control, this might be a good time to stop and think about our policy in the future.

My own view is that the “strong and stable Pakistan is in India’s best interests” proposition has failed. Over the last several years, we have done everything we can to help Pakistan. We have hosted General Musharraf, we have offered talks on Kashmir, we have supported civilian politicians and welcomed Asif Zardari with open arms. We have tried our hardest to understand the mindset of civil society, with a steady stream of Pakistani intellectuals arriving in India, and, each evening, our channels offer endless TV time to Pakistanis to tell us what their country’s position is.

Here’s what this policy has got us: General Musharraf is still blatantly hostile to India as his last rant at the India Today Conclave demonstrated. Asif Zardari has refused to help in the investigation of the Bombay attacks. Terrorists continue to be sent across the border to foment trouble in India. Far from following a liberal policy, the new civilian government has done deals with the Taliban and imposed the medieval Sharia law in parts of Pakistan.

All opinion polls suggest that the average Pakistani hates India, loves Osama bin Laden and believes that 9/11 was a Jewish plot to malign global Islam. Worse still, the evidence suggests that if you push the Pakistani masses about their true identity they would pick Muslim over Pakistani. Do you have to be a genius to see that the good neighbour policy has been an utter and complete disaster?

What Indians find shocking is the extent to which so many educated Pakistanis seem unable to divorce their Islamic identity from political discourse.Is it not time to concede that General Musharraf’s attitude is symptomatic of the view of the Pakistan army: India is the enemy and must always be fought? Shouldn’t we accept that Pakistan’s civilian politicians are such untrustworthy sleazeballs that they make Mayawati shine like a goddess in comparison? Even if a crook like Zardari is sincere (which I doubt; his ultimate loyalty is to Credit Suisse) he simply does not have the clout to deliver on the kind of peace and love nonsense that he gushed about at the HT Summit.

More worrying is that Pakistan’s civil society seems to have only the most minimal commitment to the liberal values that we in India enshrine in our Constitution. Even someone like Imran Khan, who improved his mind at Oxford and developed his loins on Sloane Street, turns into a reactionary when he addresses his own people, going so far as to praise Sharia law.

What Indians find shocking is the extent to which so many educated Pakistanis seem unable to divorce their Islamic identity from political discourse. You and I can get up and say that Hindu fanatics are thugs and goons or even that Narendra Modi is a mass murderer. How many Pakistanis get up and say that about their own fanatics? We speak up for MF Husain’s right to paint Hindu goddesses in the nude. How many Pakistanis speak up for the Danish cartoonist?

As for people-to-people contacts, I am still in favour of letting Pakistanis come to India to see what a liberal society looks like. But I have given up all hope that it will make a difference to the general Pakistani mind-set. After all, if you’re dealing with a country whose people have bought Al-Qaeda propaganda about how all terrorism is really an American and Israeli plot, a people who are content to live off the Yankee dollar while simultaneously hating the US, and a people who venerate the suicide bombers that bin Laden dispatches around the world, then do you really believe that they will suddenly see the light when they land in Bombay and discover that our three biggest stars are all Muslim?

It’s gone too far for people-to-people contacts to make much difference.

So, what do we do? I think we should accept that the intelligence establishment may have had a point. We should resume clandestine operations, we should do to the Pakistanis what they are doing to us, and hit back every time we are attacked.

We should tell the US that we are tired of this policy of equivalence. When America attacked Afghanistan, we did not treat the US and Afghanistan as moral equals. Similarly, America should stop treating India and Pakistan on the same plane. One of us is the world’s largest democracy. And the other is a terrorist state.

But if we are to ensure that the world sees through Pakistan’s pretensions and recognises it for what it is, then we must first rid ourselves of our own illusions. Let’s stop kidding ourselves about the true nature of the enemy. Let’s recognise the magnitude of the threat — growing by the day as Taliban influence spreads — and work out a strategy to fight it.

The time for lighting candles at the Wagah border has long since passed.

When attacked, we must hit back- Hindustan Times
 
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”They say that India fought five wars against us. We say that all the wars (1948, 1965, 1971, Siachen and Kargil) were initiated by you.”

LOL. What a terribly objective assessment.:lol:

How do retards like this get their rants into important news papers I don’t know. Don’t the editors know anything about history?

There is a difference between those who represent a nationalist inclination, those who try to be neutral every time confrontation breaks out and try to attribute blame based on ground realities; then we have completely pathetic self-loathing 'intellectual' wannabes who whole heartily endorse the most vulgar and clumsy propaganda emulating from the enemy and seek to belittle their country and country-men over pitiful things at every turn in the hopes of becoming self styled ‘critics’. It’s pathetic, atleast Indian nay-sayers are constructive and spirited when assessing their country's situation and don’t try to substitute for their intellectual bankruptcy by embracing base, lowly, pointless rhetoric whose purpose is to purport that the very existence of Pakistan is nothing but a long list of mistakes.
 
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AgNoStIc MuSliM

Was the Indian Administration listening to the Indian writers and intellectuals arguing for India to accept a plebiscite formula in some shape or form in the aftermath of the protests in Kashmir?

The plebiscite was to be implemented in consonance with UN Resolution 47 (1948) ALWAYS which called for removal of Pakistani troops and nationals ..... something I am yet to see. Why the hell are you even talking about this? You want second part to be implemented but not your undertakings?

Kashmir in the United Nations

http://www.kashmiri-cc.ca/un/sc21apr48.htm

Had posted these links in earlier also in different thread. Kindly do take the trouble to read through it next time you start with plebiscite!


In terms of tangible steps actually showing sincerity on India's part towards peace with Pakistan, the UNSC guaranteed rights of the Kashmiris and settling conflicts, acting on those ideas would have done so much more.

Rights which they exercise, by ballot, by protesting, by rioting when required. No rights are being trampled. Infact no non Kashmiri is allowed to buy land there ..... or settle for that matter. And what of the rights of original Kashmiri Pandits who fled in an exodus to other parts of india? Why cry? Indian army is today there for the genocide against a minority in late 1980s!


Your contentions of plebiscite are half baked and yet you have consistently propogated the same while being the biggest defaulter for the same.

Thanks
 
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^^ First, learn to read the posts in context, and what was being replied to.

Second, the canard raised by Indians over the Pakistani withdrawal has been answered in the UNSC resolutions sticky.

Thanks
 
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^^ First, learn to read the posts in context, and what was being replied to.

Second, the canard raised by Indians over the Pakistani withdrawal has been answered in the UNSC resolutions sticky.

Thanks

ah the mod role in action to cover inability to defend your own contention?


anyways its in the spirit of the thread if you are able to even appreciate the strategic implication of a disengagement of troops from eastern front by PA to engage the Taliban in light of your so called "kashmir first" attitude.

you have quite a few times linked active involvement of PA troops in CI grid only if assurance of non-aggression from Indian side is given by western nations......

ok I desist from any further forays in lieu of your discomfiture over this
 
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ah the mod role in action to cover inability to defend your own contention?


anyways its in the spirit of the thread if you are able to even appreciate the strategic implication of a disengagement of troops from eastern front by PA to engage the Taliban in light of your so called "kashmir first" attitude.

you have quite a few times linked active involvement of PA troops in CI grid only if assurance of non-aggression from Indian side is given by western nations......

ok I desist from any further forays in lieu of your discomfiture over this

Hellfire,

Do point out to me where I elicited opinions on the technicalities of the UNSC resolutions and a plebiscite on this thread.

This is the third thread where you have looked at the two words 'Kashmir and Plebiscite' in a post and regurgitated the same links to make a flawed and already debunked point on the UNSC resolutions.

Its like an impulsive reaction.

There is a dedicated thread for the UNSC resolutions, where your contentions have been debunked a long time ago, along with a myriad other Kashmir threads.

Once again, read the posts in context, including the post being replied to - this isn't the 'moderator' talking, merely a poster asking you to stop massacring peoples posts by going off on tangents and derailing threads.

Thanks.
 
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POINTS THAT THE WORLD YOU RECOGNISE AND NOTE IGNORE:

1) Pak army should withdraw and a plebscit would be held in the UN....well INDIAN ARMY entered kashmir what was the gurantee it would not consolidate and solidfy its defences if PAK ARMY PULLED OUT

2) ISRAEL...a common enemy of muslims is traininig as well as equipping the INDIAN ARMY.....this cannot be overlooked by PAKISTAN.

3)BALOCHISTAN seperation movement has hitech equipment that india possesess...

4) PAKISTAN SEPNT $34BILLION TO FIGHT the WAR ON TERROR FOR THE US & THE WORLD and in return got $11BILLION....

5) IF US & NATO can't defeat the TALIBAN and AL QAEDA with all the money manpower and ammunation..hi-tech gadgets how is PAKISTAN expected to defeat them.

6) US made these taliban and trained them it is there brain child pakistan shouldn't be blamed for it.

7) PAKISTAN saw how innocent INDIA is in december when they had the AUDACITY to threaten PAKISTAN with "SURGICAL STRIKES" and we have another example from 2002 as well!!

So please the world should shutup and THANK PAKISTAN NOT COMPLAIN and realsie INDIA is was and will be PAKISTANs biggest enemy period!!! :pakistan:
 
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And who is the U.S. to tell Pakistan who it's enemies are and who are not?
Bottomline, India cannot be trusted, it's a simple fact, especially nowadays, perhaps decades later, relations will be different, but right now, we simply cannot turn our backs on them and fully concentrate in the northwest.
If we wish to do so, then India must also fully co-operate, however, I don't think they will.
The Indians always talk about combatting terrorism or blaming Pakistan for not doing enough, while infact, they are forming a big obstacle for Pakistan in this WoT.
India says it's willing to join in this WoT, to get ridd of terrorism in whole South East Asia, however, by saying this, you cannot apply double standards or follow an agenda which actually is no different then certain elements of terrorism.
Seriously, both sides have an image problem, and if the Indians really want Pakistan to succeed in this WoT, they better start thinking about their own ways of helping us with it, instead of putting the blame constantly on Pakistan for every terrorist activity.

And no, I don't mean Indian soldiers on Pakistani soil as "help", as certain Indian politicians have suggested, clearly an election stunt.
Support in this WoT can be provided in many, many other ways, the Indians know this, but they too are not very confident, it's either a yes or a no.
 
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