Pakistan Faces Threat From Terrorism, Not India:US

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Agnostic

I assure you the response shall be vast and overwhelming and final.

As will it from our side.

 

[Hellfire]

Hellfire


I don't know, I just don't know - I don't buy the argument that the army cannot fight -- I am more persuaded that it will not fight or that it is engaged in a test of nerves with the politicians.

Either way it will lose in public opinion.

Sympathizers in the army? A disaster beyond measure - and it just may be best that it sit in it's barracks, bangles optional.

Rescue ranger and Bezerk have reported interesting converation about instituting a draft or a civilian militia - the latter is a strong possibiity and I welcome it.

Neither do I. It can and is highly capable of rolling them back. Only there is a lack of will/hesitancy on part of higher brass.

Sympathisers purely on basis of religious lines as also influence from the rural areas where similar ideology may have been preached. God knows, gives shivers to think if PA acts too late.

A civillian militia will not be able to counter these trained and hardened combatants.

My fear is that you will have your Kashmir too, but at a much larger and fiercer scale. It took us 20 years and thousands of casualties even to say things are better, I wonder what awaits Pakistan.

 

[Hellfire]

As will it from our side.

I have reservations about that due to the fact that you can discount no first policy of India here which is only limited to a conventional war set up. Any non-conventional approach (employment of chemicals/biological weapons as also as extension proxies) India is clear it reserves the right to use ANY weapon. So I say.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I have reservations about that due to the fact that you can discount no first policy of India here which is only limited to a conventional war set up. Any non-conventional approach (employment of chemicals/biological weapons as also as extension proxies) India is clear it reserves the right to use ANY weapon. So I say.

Hellfire,

India simply does not have the capability to take out Pakistan's entire conventional or unconventional capability in one strike, or even severely damage it.

If India resorts to a first strike, you will pay dearly as well.

In any case, leave the fan boy comments off the thread please, back to topic.

 

[S-2]

There's zero indication that we are involved in back-channel negotiations over Kashmir's status. None from that article so hold your breath if that's what you read from it but I sure don't.

"...ordinary Pakistanis long ago realized the depravity and immorality of American foreign policy."

Tiresome soapbox pontifications. Pitch it to your ordinary Pakistanis whom evidently listen but be careful in that glass house of yours. Nobody else is listening to your bilge here.

"Raising them to decency can be done without an occupation, atrocities and rapes of millions of others."

Baluchis tell fascinatingly similar tales of horror. Who to believe in this evil world?

"Yes yes, continue with the speculative pejoratives. I'll have your lines memorized at this rate."

Are you upset that I muse of your army's vulnerability to the islamist message?

Of course you are. Silly of me to be so insensitive. I'm sorry. Very much so. I imagine it's at the back of your mind too and is somewhat painful to consider.

I shan't bring the matter up with you again in recognition of your fragile sensibilities.

I promise.

 

[Hellfire]

Hellfire,

India simply does not have the capability to take out Pakistan's entire conventional or unconventional capability in one strike, or even severely damage it.

If India resorts to a first strike, you will pay dearly as well.

In any case, leave the fan boy comments off the thread please, back to topic.

Agnostic

Howsoever you may wish, these are no fan boy comments. I dont talk out of my hat, and am sure you can follow some of my posts to ascertain that. There is a base for everything I type (apart from those that are sarcastic remarks which you remove dutifully)

well its true that every element can not be removed. however if you shall apply the basics of a nuclear fallout and impact of such weapons in terms of disruptions in command and control due to EMP (something which knocks off your electricals?) in a comapratively smaller landmass, Indian acceptance of a level of damage and otherparameters, you shall appreciate the fact that this combined with the time of flight gives a very heavy advantage to India in terms of first strike.

as for assets, shall discuss what india holds in other forum surely to debunk your assertion of lack of capabilities for the same.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

There's zero indication that we are involved in back-channel negotiations over Kashmir's status. None from that article so hold your breath if that's what you read from it but I sure don't.

There was zero indication on my part that the article suggested intervention in kashmir.

If you would stop dissembling and distorting for a moment and actually read the arguments you would realize that my position in favor of US engagement between India and Pakistan, throughout this thread, was in the context of the US being able to provide Pakistan with a certain degree of confidence that the Indians would not strike while Pakistan's back was turned.

And my arguments with Energon revolved around the point that there was no guarantee against terrorism, and without a clear understanding of restraint between the two nations while Pakistan acted to restore its writ in the North West, a comprehensive reorientation of the military would not be possible.

Tiresome soapbox pontifications.

Hardly - you are the embodiment of the moral depravity - business intereests over the rights of people.

Baluchis tell fascinatingly similar tales of horror. Who to believe in this evil world?

Oh we should believe the UNSC, since you love to pontificate about the '42 nation mandate in Afghanistan or some such thing. But are their UNSC resolutions on Balochistan demanding a plebiscite and outlining their rights? Is Balochistan under occupation? The extent of the horror and atrocities documented by international human rights organizations in Kashmir far surpasses anything the Baluch terrorist groups lie about.

But keep dissembling, making equivocations and justifying the occupation, atrocities and rape of millions in the name of 'business interests'. To be expected I suppose, given the history of slavery and segregation in America, and a historically morally bankrupt foreign policy in favor of 'business interests'.

Are you upset that I muse of your army's vulnerability to the islamist message?

At this point is more like being humored given how repetitious the pejoratives and unsubstantiated allegations are.

Like I said, must have been some kind of a record, those couple of sensible posts from you, before resort to more of the same.

 

[blain2]

"The officer corps has the same sentiments as the public about the involvement of the Army in politics."

Indeed they do- among the ranks and mid-level officers I fully believe that the conversations differ little from your public- hidden hands, anti-Pakistani conspiracies, anti-islamic hatred by others, PREDATOR, rude and arrogant Americans, etc.

...and no idea who to support. Your commanders and civil leaders were shocked by Bajaur. Your troops by SWAT. Your fellow muslim citizens now carry arms and look at your men and say,

"You cannot shoot me. I am muslim and Pakistani. All I want is what you should want if you're a good muslim too. If you kill me, you do so as a dog of the state and a lackey of the American serpents.

Join us instead or step aside."

That's what I'd say and that's exactly what your commanders fear. It will destroy the army and I believe your troops are in their barracks and being worked INTENSIVELY to re-think the coming war.

I hope so anyway. If not they are there to surrender and may already have. Your army cannot afford to reveal open fissures to the Indians. It will do all it can to hide this growing cancer in your ranks from other interested observers. The best way in the mind of Kiyani and your corps commanders may be to put the troops on the shelf if they can't be re-indoctrinated to understand the public must render unto Caesar what is his.

Finally, reinvigorated psychologically or not, this is a massive endeavor that's not finished until Waziristan and Baluchistan are recaptured. We're looking at years likely, even decades. That sort of war may shatter your army functionally in any case.

It damned near did ours in S. Vietnam. Here, however, you've the luxury of fighting for your lands.

That should matter to Pakistani patriots, I'd hope.

S-2,

You are fine to hold your views and think whatever you must, I really don't agree with quite a lot of these detached observations about the PA you keep on posting.

The Army will move when it will and when it does and takes action, all of your suppositions, claims of low morale, our offrs not knowing their heads from their *****, and all of the rest of the critique will go by the way side. The coreligionist issue is there and will remain. That is what makes this challenge all the more harder than for an outside force to come and conduct these ops. I do not expect you to understand this because you simply won't despite very many posts explaining the same.

I have made my own views known on other threads as well. Pakistan Army can and will sort out these elements, but it will do so when the political conditions are conducive. The current environment looks like the conditions needed for Army to move decisively are being created. Until then I will hold my opinion on this topic as there are dime a dozen opinions and critiques of the Army already.

I do not see the US/ISAF springing miracles in Afghanistan or Iraq as such pronouncements about the negative performance of the Pakistan Army don't help much. You may know the mindset of your senior officers and the mindset of your forces well, please grant us the same.

Finally, reinvigorated psychologically or not, this is a massive endeavor that's not finished until Waziristan and Baluchistan are recaptured. We're looking at years likely, even decades. That sort of war may shatter your army functionally in any case.

We have fought longer CI campaigns than the ones we are in right now. We have fought the Afghan govt backed tribals in Bajaur from 1960-62. Then we have fought a very significant CI campaign in Baluchistan from 72-76. East Pakistan was another CI campaign which eventually turned to full-scale war, otherwise without Indian intervention, Pakistani forces had pacified the insurgent threat. The bottom line is that Army is very capable of taking on such things and beating them and has shown the needed resiliency.

 

[S-2]

"At this point is more like being humored given how repetitious the pejoratives and unsubstantiated allegations are."

Ah, but you're a veritable fountain of new and imaginative thought? Sure. If you say so it must be.

"Like I said, must have been some kind of a record, those couple of sensible posts from you, before resort to more of the same."

Yeah, that's me. Floating in and out of sensibility. My posts speak for themselves and I see my value and the notes from others attesting to such so you're simply a guy...

ya know?

I won't agree that Kashmir needs broaching now. I won't agree that it exceeds India's legitimate security concerns. I won't agree that until guarantees to your eastern security that your army must remain rooted like a tree in the east. I suspect that's a smokescreen to other, deeper issues within your ranks in any case.

On the last point it's really a question of whether they can actually be effectively used to defend your country from any entity save the Indians. That appears questionable based upon my increasingly relevant speculation about the psychic health of your army.

Whether you wish to dismiss this out of hand or entertain the thoughts is up to you. I don't care. Others already are and, as usual, I wouldn't be surprised if, again, you're late to your own party. It doesn't matter if, in the end, your army remains in it's barracks for any reason so long as they remain.

And they do.

Wish ya luck. You do sincerely need it.

Thanks.

 

[blain2]

Muse

PA is a NCO led army unlike India (where an officer leads and holds sway and as such knows the nerves of his troops). This again poses a serious challenge as the NCO himself is from similar background. The officers have maintained a class system from colonial days and as such can not really analyse how their troops will respond in a firefight in case they are asked to engage the talibs at all.

So its really a question of if the PA top Brass has the brass where its needed!

Way off the mark and sorry to say, pulled out of nowhere..

Says who that PA is an NCO led Army? Another "make yourself feel better about your own officers" attempt?

Contrary to common perception, the background of many of the officers is similar to the rank and file they command. This is one of many reasons that the role of the JCO (senior most NCO cadres in the Army), has become redundant.

I have yet to come across as uninformed a post about the PA as this one. You have no idea what our YOs are doing during operations against these militants and in all of the recent campaigns. You folks went around after the Kargil war parading the fact that you lost so many YOs because they led from the front, whereas ours were nowhere around. This was a classic BS campaign. I know about the young officers who fought and died on the mountains of Kargil. There was no shortage of such men and they led from the front and continue to do so to this day.

The officer corps and the men they command are much closer than they were in the past. This is quite obvious just observing the YOs with their charges.

Your last sentence is in accordance with the prevailing negative campaign launched against the PA by every Tom, Dick and Harry (the idea is to prod them into action by such negativity, but the thing of it is that the Army moves when it feels it needs to move, and when it does against this threat, we can judge it then)...it took your Army all of Pakistan's help to get some semblance of peace in IoK, so to talk of brass where its needed is misplaced. CI is a difficult issue, lets not talk as if others have sprung overnight miracles.

 

[S-2]

"The Army will move when it will and when it does and takes action, all of your suppositions, claims of low morale, our offrs not knowing their heads from their *****, and all of the rest of the critique will go by the way side."

Well, sooner or later I've got to be proved wrong on this point. Have you a date firm in mind to do so as I've been waiting since that battalion was captured enmasse a few years ago?

"The coreligionist issue is there and will remain. That is what makes this challenge all the more harder than for an outside force to come and conduct these ops."

Blain2, I don't understand your reference to "co-religionists". Please amplify, if you would?

"I do not expect you to understand this because you simply won't despite very many posts explaining the same."

That's fine. I get it. S-2 is out to lunch and Pakistan's troops are unaffected by the psychic challenge of confronting Pakistani citizens during combat operations. Good. You're morally and physically fit to take on this challenge?

Go get em', tiger.

"I have made my own views known on other threads as well. Pakistan Army can and will sort out these elements, but it will do so when the political conditions are conducive."

Is that "code" for cash? "conducive" rings hollow as FATA is gone and now SWAT and Buner. How much more conducive must matters be?

"I do not see the US/ISAF springing miracles in Afghanistan or Iraq as such pronouncements about the negative performance of the Pakistan Army don't help much."

Miracles? This is a war but we're very engaged. Contrary to the buzz about not doing enough, forty one nations have travelled thousands of miles to put 80,000 reasonably to superbly trained troops to work every damned day fighting this war in Afghanistan. That's in addition to the growing ANA.

Our guys are in battle daily without expectation of miracles but with every desire to close and kill the enemy. Meanwhile, there ARE miracles if you looked.

We know where the dope problem is now. It's backed up against Baluchistan. We've been south of Garmsir now and will be all spring, summer, and fall. If you're a serious student of this war then you've little doubt but that ISAF spends it's days staying very, very busy. We don't lack for contacts and we don't shy from them.

The miracle will be seeing your army do the same.

"The bottom line is that Army is very capable of taking on such things and beating them and has shown the needed resiliency."

I don't share your confidence and have been watching matters quite closely. Hope I'm wrong and you're correct.

 

[blain2]

Well, sooner or later I've got to be proved wrong on this point. Have you a date firm in mind to do so as I've been waiting since that battalion was captured enmasse a few years ago?

No Pakistani Army battalion or FC one for that matter has been captured enmasse. There is a difference between a FC battalion commanded by a PA officer and a regular PA battalion. I do not expect people to understand this since they rely on the media (both Pakistani and foreign stink at being able to make key distinctions). So let me be very clear, no Pakistan Army or FC Bn has surrendered enmasse anywhere in this entire campaign. Forget a battalion, not even a regular Army company has surrendered to the militants. However this little detail matters little to those who want to make their points at the expense of the PA.

The rest, respectfully, is more of the same that we have discussed quite a few times over.

 

[Ratus Ratus]

S-2:
You should know by now that and to quote "Answer to the Ultimate Question of Life, the Universe, and Everything" is 42.

So since 42 has not occurred in the concepts of discussion; issues on the north of the Afghan/Pakistan border are and will be different to issues south of the border, so to speak.

Shame and I thought you realised this significant matter.

 

[S-2]

"So let me be very clear, no Pakistan Army or FC Bn has surrendered enmasse anywhere in this entire campaign."

As you insist-

Taliban Capture 100-Long War Journal

The links inside the article are to DAWN and others so read as you will. 17 truckloads of troops and nine officers. Between 100-300. The incident was well-documented and I look forward to your explanation.

 

[muse]

Just no point to being defensive - If "conducive" political environment is what the army needs, then clearly it is playing politics, is that an unfair conclusion? And while it is playing politics, would it be unfair to conclude that it is willingly not discharging it's duty to safe guard Pakistan and Pakistanis?

Reasonable persons cannot be of two opinions about this. Howevr; moving further, what will it take for the the army to act decisively? indeed, can political conditions for decisive action be created? I think not, ordinary Pakistanis will have to create circumstances to which politicians and the Army can react - because neither the politiicans nor the army are able to or willing to create such circumstances