Pakistan faces dilemma over nemesis India

[Spitfighter]

Taimikhan, I'm sorry, I really have no idea where you are going with your post but I suspect you are about to blame the RAW-CIA-Mossad nexus. So I think I'm done talking to you.

Moving on,

ajpirzada, half ready isn't ready enough, if you chase two rabbits you will lose them both. Its Pakistan that stands to lose everything. The Americans will go back to their homes thousands of miles away, India has learned to live with the status-quo, we've dealt with it all these years anyways, and Afghanistan will simply turn into Asia's very own Somalia, and you think you have a refugee crisis now.

If this war goes downhill, and it will unless there is a dramatic shift in Pakistan's approach, Pakistan will find itself practically isolated and heavily dependent on China and Saudi Arabia.

Pakistan is stuck between a rock and a hard place, so you will be have to be the ones making compromises and hard decisions. I think Pakistan will continue on it's current path because it believes that the fallout can be adequately contained. By the time they make the switch it might simply be too late. My only concern is that this might eventually become India's problem which is why I initially favored less aggressive stance on India's part, but I think India isn't in a position to cut Pakistan any slack at the moment, it might come back to bite us later. I fear that things will have to get a lot worse before they get any better.

 

[SBD-3]

Taimikhan, I'm sorry, I really have no idea where you are going with your post but I suspect you are about to blame the RAW-CIA-Mossad nexus. So I think I'm done talking to you.

Moving on,

ajpirzada, half ready isn't ready enough, if you chase two rabbits you will lose them both. Its Pakistan that stands to lose everything. The Americans will go back to their homes thousands of miles away, India has learned to live with the status-quo, we've dealt with it all these years anyways, and Afghanistan will simply turn into Asia's very own Somalia, and you think you have a refugee crisis now.

If this war goes downhill, and it will unless there is a dramatic shift in Pakistan's approach, Pakistan will find itself practically isolated and heavily dependent on China and Saudi Arabia.

Pakistan is stuck between a rock and a hard place, so you will be have to be the ones making compromises and hard decisions. I think Pakistan will continue on it's current path because it believes that the fallout can be adequately contained. By the time they make the switch it might simply be too late. My only concern is that this might eventually become India's problem which is why I initially favored less aggressive stance on India's part, but I think India isn't in a position to cut Pakistan any slack at the moment, it might come back to bite us later. I fear that things will have to get a lot worse before they get any better.

ok tell me one thing there are 14 counsulets in afghanistan as against only 3 in US
Embassy, Other Consulates in U.S.A. and Permanent Mission to U.N.-Consulate General of India, New York, U.S.A. - indiacgny.org - www.indiacgny.org
hope to hear your views

 

[Spitfighter]

Try clicking on the link you've attached, and then tell me how many consulates India has in the US

There are five Indian consulates in Afghanistan: Embassy of India in Afghanistan

But what does that have to do with anything?

 

[wtf]

ok tell me one thing there are 14 counsulets in afghanistan as against only 3 in US
Embassy, Other Consulates in U.S.A. and Permanent Mission to U.N.-Consulate General of India, New York, U.S.A. - indiacgny.org - www.indiacgny.org
hope to hear your views

India has 5 in US (from the link you gave) and only 3 in Afghanistan (+1 embassy) Embassy of India, Kabul, Afghanistan

 

[TaimiKhan]

ok tell me one thing there are 14 counsulets in afghanistan as against only 3 in US
Embassy, Other Consulates in U.S.A. and Permanent Mission to U.N.-Consulate General of India, New York, U.S.A. - indiacgny.org - www.indiacgny.org
hope to hear your views

Hasnain, dont expect a view from these indians, they will come again with another lame excuse or a post, their minds are so full of their own propaganda BS, that they cant even see a naked truth in front of them.

Uptill now, i have just liked one indian member here, ID i guess is Gabbar, who did talk as a sensible human being whohas a heart & mind, rest no hope.

 

[SQ8]

Lets get this straight. The Pakistan Military establishment has Always courted militant Islamists to provide a second line of defense or to use as cannon fodder. However, This second line of defense which is not indoctrinated like the mainstream army and hence was never under direct control rather more mercenary like. It is easier to send poor kids to training camps along Kashmir and send em in to kill a few Indians and destabilize Kashmir and create problems for India(after all, we need the water, and for it we are prepared to nuke the Indians for it). Since the infiltrators are usually going into a meat grinder, you need more meat. Hence the recruits could come from all over Pakistan. And since the Taliban came into power, you had another place to train your suicide bombers and general terrorist, in return you decide to support the Taliban since there is a certain plan hidden in the closet about culturally invading Afghanistan to get strategic depth and to get resources, works for any country any day. Think about it, economically and militarily, it was brilliant. Instead of sending in a regular who is expensive to train and more importantly has a record. You send in these anonymous young men, beefed up by the temptation of meeting pretty women with the added benefit of having their sins forgiven( along with a probable financial gain in the world thanks to the Pakistani military establishment) are ready to do quite a bit fo damage. Now these guys go in, employ guerrilla tactics and are a constant menace to the Indian Army.They get killed to you they are all John Doe's or Javed Dogars.Who cares, plenty more poor people out there to send in.
In come the Indians looking to do the same, and since they find out that Pakistani Government doesn't really care if its citizens get blown to smithereens in Lahore where your agents can do the same you decide the best way to get into a full scale conventional conflict where it can deal a proper blow to Pakistan's army is to stir up anti Pakistan sentiments back home. So you attack your parliament or turn a blind eye to intelligence suggesting attacks on your cities. And Voila! not only do you get full support against your prime enemy, you get the doves to shut up, newer equipment which is now free from kickback syndrome. The cherry on the ice cream came after 9/11 that those militants which your arch foe was nurturing for you are now hated by the world and since Pakistan has to abandon them they start attacking the Pakistan Army. and whats more, these militant goats don't really care about Muslims or Pakistan, They just want to set up a barbaric society that works for their level of understanding, and they would love to be funded by anybody. Isn't this great, now's your chance to deal the same kind of suffering you had because of the Pakistani Military and with interest. and whats more, Nobody is going to lift a finger at you and those miserable Pakistani's can cry foul all they want, their track record is so bad that everybody thinks its they kettle calling the pot black here. Right now, for the Indian Military and Leadership. Its party time. You have world opinion on your side about cross border terrorism, your people want Pakistani blood, You are on a buying spree of weapons. Your arch enemy is being ravaged by blood thirsty bearded goats who use one reference no Pakistani dares to argue against and that is Islam. On top of which you can put your people in with them and really make the Pakistani's feel the pain you went through in Kashmir ten fold. In the meantime arming yourself to the teeth for a Final solution to the Pakistan problem. Life was never soo sweet.

But then.. whats wrong with any of it?
The Americans did it, The Russains did it. The Isreali's and Arabs do similar things.
Is it really all that taboo to let elements that harm your enemy thrive in you country. Is it the first time countries harm each other explicitly and implicitly?
And is it wrong for the Indians to cry foul over Mumbai where a guy younger than me hold their largest city hostage for 2 days. I mean of all the people Big B kept a gun under his pillow( Had Kasab killed him the damage would have been much more profound on the Indians)and he was in no danger in his comfy home.
There is nothing wrong, The Indians know diplomacy as they know how to breath.
The Indian public is a very sentimental people and can be exploited by media and decision makers all too easily.
If that allows you to build up opinion locally and globally against an old enemy and competitor. THERE is nothing wrong with it, If it gets you the chance to make your neighbors cities burn THERE IS NOTHING wrong with it. All is fair in the world.
The only difference is what you are willing to protect and promote your interests.

 

[luoshan]

Lets get this straight. The Pakistan Military establishment has Always courted militant Islamists to provide a second line of defense or to use as cannon fodder. However, This second line of defense which is not indoctrinated like the mainstream army and hence was never under direct control rather more mercenary like. It is easier to send poor kids to training camps along Kashmir and send em in to kill a few Indians and destabilize Kashmir and create problems for India(after all, we need the water, and for it we are prepared to nuke the Indians for it). Since the infiltrators are usually going into a meat grinder, you need more meat. Hence the recruits could come from all over Pakistan. And since the Taliban came into power, you had another place to train your suicide bombers and general terrorist, in return you decide to support the Taliban since there is a certain plan hidden in the closet about culturally invading Afghanistan to get strategic depth and to get resources, works for any country any day. Think about it, economically and militarily, it was brilliant. Instead of sending in a regular who is expensive to train and more importantly has a record. You send in these anonymous young men, beefed up by the temptation of meeting pretty women with the added benefit of having their sins forgiven( along with a probable financial gain in the world thanks to the Pakistani military establishment) are ready to do quite a bit fo damage. Now these guys go in, employ guerrilla tactics and are a constant menace to the Indian Army.They get killed to you they are all John Doe's or Javed Dogars.Who cares, plenty more poor people out there to send in.
In come the Indians looking to do the same, and since they find out that Pakistani Government doesn't really care if its citizens get blown to smithereens in Lahore where your agents can do the same you decide the best way to get into a full scale conventional conflict where it can deal a proper blow to Pakistan's army is to stir up anti Pakistan sentiments back home. So you attack your parliament or turn a blind eye to intelligence suggesting attacks on your cities. And Voila! not only do you get full support against your prime enemy, you get the doves to shut up, newer equipment which is now free from kickback syndrome. The cherry on the ice cream came after 9/11 that those militants which your arch foe was nurturing for you are now hated by the world and since Pakistan has to abandon them they start attacking the Pakistan Army. and whats more, these militant goats don't really care about Muslims or Pakistan, They just want to set up a barbaric society that works for their level of understanding, and they would love to be funded by anybody. Isn't this great, now's your chance to deal the same kind of suffering you had because of the Pakistani Military and with interest. and whats more, Nobody is going to lift a finger at you and those miserable Pakistani's can cry foul all they want, their track record is so bad that everybody thinks its they kettle calling the pot black here. Right now, for the Indian Military and Leadership. Its party time. You have world opinion on your side about cross border terrorism, your people want Pakistani blood, You are on a buying spree of weapons. Your arch enemy is being ravaged by blood thirsty bearded goats who use one reference no Pakistani dares to argue against and that is Islam. On top of which you can put your people in with them and really make the Pakistani's feel the pain you went through in Kashmir ten fold. In the meantime arming yourself to the teeth for a Final solution to the Pakistan problem. Life was never soo sweet.

But then.. whats wrong with any of it?
The Americans did it, The Russains did it. The Isreali's and Arabs do similar things.
Is it really all that taboo to let elements that harm your enemy thrive in you country. Is it the first time countries harm each other explicitly and implicitly?
And is it wrong for the Indians to cry foul over Mumbai where a guy younger than me hold their largest city hostage for 2 days. I mean of all the people Big B kept a gun under his pillow( Had Kasab killed him the damage would have been much more profound on the Indians)and he was in no danger in his comfy home.
There is nothing wrong, The Indians know diplomacy as they know how to breath.
The Indian public is a very sentimental people and can be exploited by media and decision makers all too easily.
If that allows you to build up opinion locally and globally against an old enemy and competitor. THERE is nothing wrong with it, If it gets you the chance to make your neighbors cities burn THERE IS NOTHING wrong with it. All is fair in the world.
The only difference is what you are willing to protect and promote your interests.

Reasonably well written, until the point where the standard pakistani propaganda that India is aiding militancy in Pakistan. Claims not backed by solid proofs are just rhetoric and only go in the category of conspiracy theories. Conspiracy theories are not admissible material to base any argument on, the credibility of the argument is lost when quoting just rhetoric and heresay. Hence the concluding paragraphs of the above commentary is totally irrelevant.
The whole Idea of latest Pakistani propaganda seems to be: Image of Pakistan is very bad in the international scene and nothing much can be done about it. The only way to make Pakistan look better is bring India down to its own level or try to atleast show India in bad light.
This propaganda seems to be working for Pakistans domestic consumption, but doesn't cut much ice internationally..
Pakistan has to produce solid evidence before the international audience to support it claims against India, especially since its credibility and acceptance levels are rock bottom at present.

 

[SQ8]

It wont cut ice internationally, since the proof even if presented is taken with a bag of salt. This has more to do with Indian Diplomatic Skills and general perception of Pakistan in the world. What I don't understand is the reluctance of Indians to state that this might be probable. To consider your hands clean is to mock history itself.
The commentry has more to do with sarcasm than rhetoric, since at this juncture India does enjoy all the advantages. The intended tone is humorous rather than the usual whining we hear from across the border whenever there is a defense purchase by Pakistan. And the fact that you like all the parts where I state Pakistan's dirty hands and seemed to find my discourse on India as rhetoric shows you treated the whole "commentary" with skepticism from the start,I sense a mind made up with opinions and one that reaches conclusions all to quickly . Instead of understanding the embedded puns and the casual approach I took to the issues, You chose to pass anti Pakistan comments anyway instead of understanding light humour..
And oh yeah..Most of the time, Us Pakistani's generally don't give a rats butt crack(cant write the shorter form..banned) about how we can reduce India's credibility or blame it.

 

[asq]

Proof you requested Luoshan.

Brahamdagh is based in Kabul and is a familiar face within the defense and intelligence circles in Delhi.

BLA was the name that the former KGB and the Indian intelligence gave to Pakistani communist recruits who were paid to destabilize Pakistan during the 1960s, ‘70s and ‘80s, when the Soviet Union controlled Afghanistan. The BLA died with the end of the Cold War and the Soviet withdrawal from Afghanistan, but has been revived by the Indians after US occupied Afghanistan.

Here is what Christine Fair of RAND Corporation has said earlier this year about what the Indian consulates are up to in Afghanistan and Iran:

“I think it would be a mistake to completely disregard Pakistan’s regional perceptions due to doubts about Indian competence in executing covert operations. That misses the point entirely. And I think it is unfair to dismiss the notion that Pakistan’s apprehensions about Afghanistan stem in part from its security competition with India. Having visited the Indian mission in Zahedan, Iran, I can assure you they are not issuing visas as the main activity! Moreover, India has run operations from its mission in Mazar (through which it supported the Northern Alliance) and is likely doing so from the other consulates it has reopened in Jalalabad and Qandahar along the border. Indian officials have told me privately that they are pumping money into Baluchistan. Kabul has encouraged India to engage in provocative activities such as using the Border Roads Organization to build sensitive parts of the Ring Road and use the Indo-Tibetan police force for security. It is also building schools on a sensitive part of the border in Kunar–across from Bajaur. Kabul’s motivations for encouraging these activities are as obvious as India’s interest in engaging in them. Even if by some act of miraculous diplomacy the territorial issues were to be resolved, Pakistan would remain an insecure state. Given the realities of the subcontinent (e.g., India’s rise and its more effective foreign relations with all of Pakistan’s near and far neighbors), these fears are bound to grow, not lessen. This suggests that without some means of compelling Pakistan to abandon its reliance upon militancy, it will become ever more interested in using it — and the militants will likely continue to proliferate beyond Pakistan’s control.”

The Foreign Policy magazine also recently confirmed the Indians were neck deep in supporting the TTP in Pakistan:

While the U.S. media has frequently reported on Pakistani ties to jihadi elements launching attacks in Afghanistan, it has less often mentioned that India supports insurgent forces attacking Pakistan. “The Indians are up to their necks in supporting the Taliban against the Pakistani government in Afghanistan and Pakistan,” a former intelligence official who served in both countries said. “The same anti-Pakistani forces in Afghanistan also shooting at American soldiers are getting support from India. India should close its diplomatic establishments in Afghanistan and get the Christ out of there.”

Afghan officials have also confirmed that India is using Afghanistan to stir trouble in Pakistan.

“India is using Afghan soil to destabilize Pakistan and Afghan security agencies are unable to stop Indian intervention due to absence of centralized government mechanism”, said Afghan Government’s Advisor, Ehsanullah Aryanzai on the sidelines of Pak-Afgan Parliamentary Jirga at a Pakistani hotel on April 2, 2009.

Pressure on the US

The Americans – under heavy pressure in Afghanistan – have started to realize they cannot save face in Afghanistan unless Pakistan’s legitimate concerns with regards to Indian sponsored terrorism are addressed immediately.

A Senior US diplomat William Burns gave Indian officials a terse directive last month, asking them to ’shut down Indian consulates in Afghanistan, reduce presence in Kabul and stop sending terrorists across the Durand Line.’ The message was supplemented with a letter from the American President Barack Obama to Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh with a similar message.

Whether RAW’s K. C. Verma takes up ISI chief Shuja Pasha’s offer of a one-on-one or not, Pakistan should increase the pressure on the US by declaring neutrality in Afghanistan and block the supply of American and NATO weapons through its soil unless the United States pays heed to its Pakistani ally’s security interests in the region.