Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2

[syed_yusuf]

JFT taking care of anything at East. Umm, isn't that a little of an exaggeration?

No it is not - in a mix of things - on defensive posture, JFT very much holds its own against anything IAF can throw at currently or in ear future.

 

[truthseeker2010]

Do you really expect us to be sold F-16Vs, 2 squadrons of them?

why not? they will be now standard production model

Yes if we go for Block 50+ but don't you think second hand ones come swifter, within 1-2 year which can coincide with Rafale. Won't going to 2020 be a year or two late?

rafale will also come in batches so it will take few years from initial receiving, its current production is 11-12 a/c per year. So don't worry it wont tilt the balance.

 

[Sara Malik]

Love Pak Air Force

 

[Basel]

Since every fighter design is a compromise; frame is optimised for a specific task. Hence there is no guarantee that the enlarged JF-17 with more powerful engines will be significantly better than the newer JF-17 models and F-16 or Chinese J-20 to justify years of work and funds invested in it.

We have seen outcome of the Japanese F-SX program started in 1987 as Mitsubishi / General Dynamics joint venture. Aim was to enlarge F-16 by 25% to increase its payload and enable it to carry AESA Radar. 8 years of development work resulted in F-2 fighter which is not much better than later F-16 models & costs $125-million per unit. Japan terminated the program in 1994 after the production of 94 examples. Remember Japan has been producing first rate fighters from the 1930’s.

Pakistan has very little experience in designing fighter planes. Pakistan did collaborate but most of the design was carried out by the Chengdu Aircraft Corporation with flight testing at the Chengdu Test Centre. We neither have the trained manpower nor the equipment to do the sophisticated design & testing required for such a projected. China has thus far not inducted JF-17 in her inventory. Instead they are concentrating on J-20. Therefore should Chinese agree; Pakistan would have to fund the entire program without being certain that the new plane would perform much better.

I have nothing more to say on this subject. However my fellow members are free to indulge in flights of fancy.

To bold part, you are right but LM built XL version of F-16 which was larger and more capable too but it lost to F-15, that kind of approach can be taken for JF-17.

Take a look of its payload, 2 AIM-9s, 4 AIM-120s and 12 MK-82s.

Basically a Modernize F-16 XL is answer of all 4.5+ gen requirements of PAF sadly Pakistan can not afford its development cost. (LM can make it extremely potent with 5th gen tech, Vista tech and some redesign of shape for being stealthy (if need)) it could hit market of EFT, Rafael and Gripes NG if ever developed.

@gambit why LM did not offer XL as new F-16 to its customers? Even if US have not selected it.

 

[untitled]

@Basel ......The f16xl was in competition with f15e for the US requirement for a strike fighter. The f15 won and Lockheed Martin dropped the f16xl program. Customers who would have ordered the f16xl got the strike eagle, slam eagle, raam anyway

 

[Battle Axe]

No it is not - in a mix of things - on defensive posture, JFT very much holds its own against anything IAF can throw at currently or in ear future.

I totally doubt it given their 200+ MKIs which are formidable fighters.

 

[Battle Axe]

why not? they will be now standard production model



rafale will also come in batches so it will take few years from initial receiving, its current production is 11-12 a/c per year. So don't worry it wont tilt the balance.

If we get hands onto 36 Vs till 2020. Then ofcourse, it looks all good.

 

[Basel]

@Basel ......The f16xl was in competition with f15e for the US requirement for a strike fighter. The f15 won and Lockheed Martin dropped the f16xl program. Customers who would have ordered the f16xl got the strike eagle, slam eagle, raam anyway

Dear your post clearly shows you didn't understood what I have said.

Did PLAAF went for JF-17s?? No but still AVIC developed it for Pakistan as JV. Similar approach could had been taken for XL if Pakistan could afford it, XL was not just strike plane, it was totally new medium to heavy multi role plane. Check out its load in pic I posted, after that load it still had capability to carry more weapons.

To prove that XL was totally new F-16 check out about its two variants, one was single seat other was dual seat.

 

[untitled]

@Basel

First of all bro when was PAF in the market for a long range high payload aircraft in the first place until recently?

Did PLAAF went for JF-17s?? No but still AVIC developed it for Pakistan as JV. Similar approach could had been taken for XL

Wrong comparison. PAF was always going for the the JF-17. Plus PAF was never part of the development process of any major block of F-16.

eveloped it for Pakistan as JV

So you talk of a JV between Paksitan and Lockheed Martin. OK here is the history of PAF F-16s and the F-16XL program

1982: F-16XL makes its first flight in 1982
1983: PAF gets its first batch of Block 15 F-16s. PAF is delighted and over the moon as the US not objecting to export a F-100 powered jet to Pakistan. No more watered down F-16s or worse F-20s. PAF sees itself in the future flying 100 F-16s

1984: F-16 XL program loses out to the F-15E (two prototypes put in storage)
1984: Pakistan is still inducting F-16

1988: NASA takes thte two prototypes out of storage and starts using them for flight testing
1988: PAF has racked up quite a few kills with the fighting falcon and its love affair has become quite stronger. PAF quite content buying F-16s with no plans for any type of JV.
The Afgan war is coming to a close and Gen Zia dies in a plane crash.

1993: F-16 XL still with NASA.... no production variant developed. No orders for it from anywhere in the world
1993: Due to the Presseler amendment Pakistan is not getting any more F-16s until it rolls back its Nuclear program.


1998: Pakistan conducts its nuclear tests. Any hope of getting more F-16s becomes increasingly bleak (Pakistan starts looking for alternatives.... JF-17 is in the works)
1999: NASA puts the XLs in storage

2006: US agrees to sell more F-16s to Pakistan. But PAF has its hands full with JF-17 program. Still PAF is not looking for a long range fighter. So any talk of reviving the F-16XL program is not on the cards.
2009: The XLs are retired

-------------------------------------------------

Now tell me from 1982 to 2009 when was the right time for PAF to ask Lockheed Martin for a "Joint Venture" with the F-16XL? A plane that since 84 was not going to be inducted in US. It was not offered to anyone and probably Pakistan would have had bear its development costs if it had gone ahead. Plus from 1993 to the early 2000s Pakistan was under US sanctions.

If you want a future block of F-16s with the delta wing developed specially for the PAF do you think the PAF will be willing to invest in it given our history with the US? Even then we would be better of with the F-35 or even some upgraded F-15s (provided the US is willing to deliver)

 

[GoldenRatio1618]

PAC need to develop its indigeous engine for future needs for this purpose PAC should go with china on partnership basis in any of new ongoing electric power engine project development because future engines will be replaced by electricpower engines more powerfull than oil engines and until that keep improving jf design with advance and future needs.

 

[untitled]

hould go with china on partnership basis in any of new ongoing electric power engine project development because future engines will be replaced by electricpower engines more

Electric engines for manned aircraft even if found to have any military applications are a good 15 to 20 years from service if not more. But you probably will see a quite a few drones

 

[IrbiS]

F-16 ADF Block 15 from 13 Jordanian examples, carrying 500 pounder.

F-16BM with LGB and old Thomson CF Targeting Pod:

 

[Quwa]

F-16 ADF Block 15 from 13 Jordanian examples, carrying 500 pounder.View attachment 279373

F-16BM with LGB and old Thomson CF Targeting Pod:View attachment 279374

Not for long iA... PAF ordered additional Sniper ATPs.

 

[GoldenRatio1618]

America why not offering Pakistan assembly line of F16s as we are oldest users of American f serires fighters...

 

[Viper0011.]

Well, I have no grudges against US on a overall note, not a lot I mean but here with F-16s, yes there have been disappointments. It pains Pakistan to know that we did pay US in cash in 90s for F-16s that were later embargoed and for which we actually had to pay fines.

That trith nullifies your suggestion that sooner or later, when we can afford to pay in cash, the Vipers will be handed over on a platter: that never actually happened to us unless US needed us too bad for its cold war thing.

I think this argument should've been settled. What the military and the Pakistani media tell her people is negative in terms of embargo's and all. But they also have the responsibility to tell people positive stuff about the US.

For example, the 1 F-16's you did receive, along with other block 52 ones, there were some serious price reductions on those. Multiple Secretary of States had mentioned this in late 90's and early 2000's, that every child knows about the F-16 saga. And as a good will gesture, the United States gave Pakistan the MNNA status, and since then, there have been weapons provided worth billions, for a fraction of the cost.

So someone has to take that into consideration that the "money lost" in 28 F-16's deal, has been recovered like 5 times more. But sadly, your press and the military, won't spend a minute in explaining that. I guess keeping a 200 million strong country should always be negative about the US, despite all kinds of assistance, from military to businesses, to healthcare, clean water, schools, universities, etc, etc??

And secondly, yes, US has been a huge provider of arms and aid but hey we have paid the price with our blood: from Zarb-e-Azb to previous aid during Afghan War. Nothing came without strings and further, we have been mostly sold second rate stuff: we will never be offered F-16V or Raptor or Patriots, why? Isn't that American hypocrisy?

Here's another problem, not just with the above paragraph, but the mentality that thinks like that. There was an event A in the 80's or 90's, today if 2015. So something that happened 3-4 decades ago, shouldn't be linked to the world we live in today, or have lived in 10 years ago.

For anyone to create a conspiracy theory that the US has embargoed the F-16's, later released them gave Pakistan new, and other weapons was because the Pakistanis would one day pay their price with blood.

The blood part, is Pakistani leadership's fault. The US has been singing the "anthem" to do more, in terms of go take these crazy bas*tard terrorists out all the way. And the US constantly told Pakistan that one day, these maniacs will create a threat for Pakistan. The US spends billions on psychological behavior research. The research tells the scientists that the pattern of such human behavior is that they are running on crazy ideology and next best thing before they can hit the Europe or the US, is Pakistan herself. So based on that assessment, Pakistan was requested to increase effectiveness in military ops so more terrorist can be taken out.

I think this was the ONLY time in the modern US history, that two US presidents had personally requested Pakistani public to eliminate this threat of terrorism and become modern. Both, President Clinton and Bush went ALL the way to Pakistan and directly addressed the people of Pakistan inside Pakistan. One of them visited years before 911, the second one, after 911. So you are going to tell me that the US had some "conspiracy theory" agenda that two US president visited Pakistan and urged the country to support tolerance and focus on modernization and eliminate the strategic depth concept as it is going to harm Pakistan. And today.....we clearly see that, the harm to Pakistan has been a lot more than anyone else!!!! Sadly, had Pakistan heard, focused on WHY the US was suggesting what she was.....MANY from the 50,000 killed by the terrorists (both soldiers and citizens) would be alive today, including the Children who lost their most innocent precious lives in Peshawar, EXACTLY one year ago. And a year after hundreds of children were killed in cold blood, we see San Bernardino attacks. Now back to when the President Clinton or Bush asked Pakistan to take out all these bad guys a decade and a half ago, if that had happened, both the US and Pakistan won't be mourning the loss of precious lives.

Moral of the story, the conspiracy theories are "the thing" to have in Pakistan. But you guys should adapt a more practical and balanced approach towards the US. The US has done a lot for Pakistan and will keep a friendly and beneficial relationship relationship with Pakistan going forward, as long as Pakistan remains on the right path towards religious tolerance, modernization, democracy and growth. That's also a message to Pakistan's military that stop cutting off the civilian system who is ultimately going to grow the system. There is no other way, and Pakistan doesn't need more Marshal Laws, no matter how you look at it.

America why not offering Pakistan assembly line of F16s as we are oldest users of American f serires fighters...

You guys don't have the $$$$. You could make a case to the US to use Turkey's line to build more jets? Also, the relationships between the US and Pakistan, are finally going in the right direction. Something like this needs about 5-7 years worth of growth in bi-lateral relationships and trust. I am sure the US will listen to it then.