Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2

[Battle Axe]

To be fair, if the 8 new F-16s pull through, then the PAF would be at 84~86 birds, not too far from 100-120, especially if more incremental orders are made.

Still far bro, this 5-6 squadron target has been brewing since 1990s and God knows when will next 24-36 birds fly in. I hope US allows us re-export buys so that we can 'rapidly' buy from other AFs around the world in span of 1-2 years. F-16 Block 10-30 would be no good after IAF begins Rafale inductions.

So you get everything from the US, but the negativity never ends.

US has provided billions of dollars worth of weapons outside of it?

Pakistan will go back for bigger orders of F-16's with cash payment as she can afford it. There should be no stopping to that..

Well, I have no grudges against US on a overall note, not a lot I mean but here with F-16s, yes there have been disappointments. It pains Pakistan to know that we did pay US in cash in 90s for F-16s that were later embargoed and for which we actually had to pay fines. That trith nullifies your suggestion that sooner or later, when we can afford to pay in cash, the Vipers will be handed over on a platter: that never actually happened to us unless US needed us too bad for its cold war thing.

And secondly, yes, US has been a huge provider of arms and aid but hey we have paid the price with our blood: from Zarb-e-Azb to previous aid during Afghan War. Nothing came without strings and further, we have been mostly sold second rate stuff: we will never be offered F-16V or Raptor or Patriots, why? Isn't that American hypocrisy?

Please don't say that these arms are risks in our hands. We have known USAF fighters to go up there with live nukes and their missiles mistakenly taking dowing commercial liners or them murdering our troops at Salala. What for was that title of major non-NATO ally bestowed upon us if all that was to follow was aid, half of our losses in a war we ggot engaged in because of US against an enemy created by the US and actually, for the US.

 

[truthseeker2010]

Still far bro, this 5-6 squadron target has been brewing since 1990s and God knows when will next 24-36 birds fly in. I hope US allows us re-export buys so that we can 'rapidly' buy from other AFs around the world in span of 1-2 years. F-16 Block 10-30 would be no good after IAF begins Rafale inductions.

re-export from whom? nato f-16's are too old, and PAF have already evaluated and rejected them, and I think PAF will go for new blk-52's and V's so most probably the next orders will be of 8 still left that were embargoed and are currently with USN, and 24-30 V's and 52's since they are in production.

 

[Battle Axe]

re-export from whom? nato f-16's are too old, and PAF have already evaluated and rejected them, and I think PAF will go for new blk-52's and V's so most probably the next orders will be of 8 still left that were embargoed and are currently with USN, and 24-30 V's and 52's since they are in production.

From around the world e.g. Egypt, Jordan

Bro, I agree those won't be all glittering but do you thing a sale of Block 52 + or the Vs would come in quick? I guess to acquire 36 of those, we would need 4-5 years. (2020)

 

[truthseeker2010]

From around the world e.g. Egypt, Jordan

Bro, I agree those won't be all glittering but do you thing a sale of Block 52 + or the Vs would come in quick? I guess to acquire 36 of those, we would need 4-5 years. (2020)

buying fighter jets is not an overnight thing, these things take time, realistically speaking 120 figure will take at least 4 years, no matter what route paf takes. So 2020 is a good assumption.

 

[IrbiS]

From around the world e.g. Egypt, Jordan

Bro, I agree those won't be all glittering but do you thing a sale of Block 52 + or the Vs would come in quick? I guess to acquire 36 of those, we would need 4-5 years. (2020)

Egypt? don't think so. About Jordan, they themselves are gonna get 7 surplus birds from Holland next year.

 

[Saifullah]

Neither China nor Pakistan; designers of JF-17; have not yet come up with this idea. Therefore any reply to this question would only be hypothetical. I have no idea and wouldn’t even hazard a guess.

My comment would be that if we wanted a plane similar to F-16 or slightly better, why only 8 F-16’s of the new model? We should have exercised the option for the full 18.

Alternately, if the money is there, PAF should go for the latest Russian or Chinese fighters. Don't you think that investing time & financial resources to design a fighter only slighter better than F-16 would be a wasted effort?

I don't understand who come if JF17 would be better than what it is would have been wasted effort. The benefit would have been we would have our own Medium type merely putting 2-4 million more per plane. which would have more Payload and Range just what our need is, True point defense.

 

[niaz]

I don't understand who come if JF17 would be better than what it is would have been wasted effort. The benefit would have been we would have our own Medium type merely putting 2-4 million more per plane. which would have more Payload and Range just what our need is, True point defense.

Since every fighter design is a compromise; frame is optimised for a specific task. Hence there is no guarantee that the enlarged JF-17 with more powerful engines will be significantly better than the newer JF-17 models and F-16 or Chinese J-20 to justify years of work and funds invested in it.

We have seen outcome of the Japanese F-SX program started in 1987 as Mitsubishi / General Dynamics joint venture. Aim was to enlarge F-16 by 25% to increase its payload and enable it to carry AESA Radar. 8 years of development work resulted in F-2 fighter which is not much better than later F-16 models & costs $125-million per unit. Japan terminated the program in 1994 after the production of 94 examples. Remember Japan has been producing first rate fighters from the 1930’s.

Pakistan has very little experience in designing fighter planes. Pakistan did collaborate but most of the design was carried out by the Chengdu Aircraft Corporation with flight testing at the Chengdu Test Centre. We neither have the trained manpower nor the equipment to do the sophisticated design & testing required for such a projected. China has thus far not inducted JF-17 in her inventory. Instead they are concentrating on J-20. Therefore should Chinese agree; Pakistan would have to fund the entire program without being certain that the new plane would perform much better.

I have nothing more to say on this subject. However my fellow members are free to indulge in flights of fancy.

 

[fatman17]

Neither China nor Pakistan; designers of JF-17; have not yet come up with this idea. Therefore any reply to this question would only be hypothetical. I have no idea and wouldn’t even hazard a guess.

My comment would be that if we wanted a plane similar to F-16 or slightly better, why only 8 F-16’s of the new model? We should have exercised the option for the full 18.

Alternately, if the money is there, PAF should go for the latest Russian or Chinese fighters. Don't you think that investing time & financial resources to design a fighter only slighter better than F-16 would be a wasted effort?

Niaz sb cash crunch money available for 8 of the 18 option just like money available for 3 of 15 AH1Zs.

 

[Aamir Hussain]

wow all problems are with us US never wanted to be globel police and infact they are angels dude u promised ship to us did u gave it to us and btw totel loss in war agains terrorism is 100 arab dollers and your military and civilian aid 1 arab dollers ??? and btw we never said there isnt any problem with our politicians but question is were it isnt yes we will and majority of youth will change but u cant cal america an angel and ccan never call it peacefull either so just shut up will ya?


on which evil "with in" us we blamed others? reality is we arnt blaming others on our faults but are blamimg evry single for there faults and on ours we criticse oversleves

Our downfall as a nation started from 65' war -- did we start it or the US told us to go do it? But till today we blame our inaptness in conducting our war strategy and diplomatic failure on the US of stopping AID. Did we fail to achieve our war objective because because of AID or our failure to read our own intelligence reports indicating that there was no ground swell in Occupied Kashmir???

 

[syed_yusuf]

at this time PAF is split b/w F-16 and JF-17. had we not have the JFT program PAF would have been at serious disadvantage. Now PAF have close to 70 JFT all 4th gen ready to take on any thing east of Pakistan

Add F-16 to it and PAF have a good deterrence against any aggression. Rewind 10 years ago and the situation was very grim.

In my Opinion JFT have provided A-5, F-7 and Mirage into one plus a lot more and that is 4th gen fighter locally produced.

 

[Battle Axe]

buying fighter jets is not an overnight thing, these things take time, realistically speaking 120 figure will take at least 4 years, no matter what route paf takes. So 2020 is a good assumption.

Yes if we go for Block 50+ but don't you think second hand ones come swifter, within 1-2 year which can coincide with Rafale. Won't going to 2020 be a year or two late?

 

[Battle Axe]

re-export from whom? nato f-16's are too old, and PAF have already evaluated and rejected them, and I think PAF will go for new blk-52's and V's so most probably the next orders will be of 8 still left that were embargoed and are currently with USN, and 24-30 V's and 52's since they are in production.

Do you really expect us to be sold F-16Vs, 2 squadrons of them?

 

[Battle Axe]

Neither China nor Pakistan; designers of JF-17; have not yet come up with this idea. Therefore any reply to this question would only be hypothetical. I have no idea and wouldn’t even hazard a guess.

My comment would be that if we wanted a plane similar to F-16 or slightly better, why only 8 F-16’s of the new model? We should have exercised the option for the full 18.

Alternately, if the money is there, PAF should go for the latest Russian or Chinese fighters. Don't you think that investing time & financial resources to design a fighter only slighter better than F-16 would be a wasted effort?

I totally agree to you for one. It would be a wasted effort: like I mean we can continue manufacturing prototypes but let's not induct the Thunder in such huge numbers. The only aim of JFT program should now to be to evolve our skills and to bd able to go for joint production of a generation 5 aircraft at some stage.

Currently, we should just collect as many Vipers as we can. F-16s should serve us better then Thunders till 2025.

 

[Battle Axe]

at this time PAF is split b/w F-16 and JF-17. had we not have the JFT program PAF would have been at serious disadvantage. Now PAF have close to 70 JFT all 4th gen ready to take on any thing east of Pakistan

Add F-16 to it and PAF have a good deterrence against any aggression. Rewind 10 years ago and the situation was very grim.

In my Opinion JFT have provided A-5, F-7 and Mirage into one plus a lot more and that is 4th gen fighter locally produced.

JFT taking care of anything at East. Umm, isn't that a little of an exaggeration?

 

[Battle Axe]

Since every fighter design is a compromise; frame is optimised for a specific task. Hence there is no guarantee that the enlarged JF-17 with more powerful engines will be significantly better than the newer JF-17 models and F-16 or Chinese J-20 to justify years of work and funds invested in it.

We have seen outcome of the Japanese F-SX program started in 1987 as Mitsubishi / General Dynamics joint venture. Aim was to enlarge F-16 by 25% to increase its payload and enable it to carry AESA Radar. 8 years of development work resulted in F-2 fighter which is not much better than later F-16 models & costs $125-million per unit. Japan terminated the program in 1994 after the production of 94 examples. Remember Japan has been producing first rate fighters from the 1930’s.

Pakistan has very little experience in designing fighter planes. Pakistan did collaborate but most of the design was carried out by the Chengdu Aircraft Corporation with flight testing at the Chengdu Test Centre. We neither have the trained manpower nor the equipment to do the sophisticated design & testing required for such a projected. China has thus far not inducted JF-17 in her inventory. Instead they are concentrating on J-20. Therefore should Chinese agree; Pakistan would have to fund the entire program without being certain that the new plane would perform much better.

I have nothing more to say on this subject. However my fellow members are free to indulge in flights of fancy.

Correct. And that's exactly why, we should be getting hands on to J-20, atleast in smaller portions, learn and we can begin our own fancies a decade or so later.