Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2

[Myth_buster_1]

If that's how you read my last post then you're clearly a nationalist fanboy. Put the blinders back on if you want.

oh i was under a impression that you were a indian hidden in a igloo but i was wrong.

Fact: the Pakistan Air Force has requested jamming pods from the US. I do not know if the US will be selling them to the PAF, but even the PAF recognizes this need.

jammer pods are not new for PAF and their is nothing new about US selling us jammer pods.. in fact PAF is one of the first ALQ-131 user. PAF will never proceed the sale if they are not up to their requirements... beside ALQ-131 block2 and ALQ-184 PAF has also requested Korean ALQ-200k for JF-17s and they were offered in IDEAS-2008.

I guess the Pakistan Air Force is secretely made up of a bunch of India-sympathizers.

tell me you were joking because its not even worth the discussion.

 

[blain2]

Fact: the Pakistan Air Force has requested jamming pods from the US. I do not know if the US will be selling them to the PAF, but even the PAF recognizes this need.

See my post #268 above. US have sold them to Pakistan and we will be getting them with all of our F-16s including the blk15s.

 

[hj786]

I think I read somewhere that even PAF's current old jammer pods in use by the F-16 fleet were effective enough in the recent Anatolian Eagle exercises to stop anyone locking missiles on them at BVR. Could this be true? Maybe the new pods are geared towards countering newer, more advanced SAMs?

 

[saiko]

I am not an Indian. Full blooded Canadian, although there are a lot of Indians where I live. I gained an interest in the India-Pakistan conflicts via The Operational Art of War (great wargame) that has some very detailed scenarios that portray the various Indo-Pak conflicts.

I've always been impressed at what the Pakistan armed forces have been able to accomplish given the circumstances (do more with less) but it's a factual reality that the circumstances are not terribly favourable (on paper) given how much larger India is.

As far as the jammers go thanks for that info. I had only seen that the PAF requested teh AN/ALQ-211 form the US but not word on whether they got them. the AN/ALQ-211 is the successor for the AN/ALQ-131 so I'm assuming Pakistan is requesting them because the ALQ-131 is no longer meeting their requirements.

The PAF needs to stay on top of the jamming game given the platform they are relying on (F-16) while the IAF needs to stay on top of the other side of the spectrum.

Fortunately for Pakistan, upgrading jammers tends to be cheaper than upgrading radar/ECCM packages. Of course, all that could change if the US extends the range of the future versions of the AMRAAM.

 

[blain2]

I am not an Indian. Full blooded Canadian, although there are a lot of Indians where I live. I gained an interest in the India-Pakistan conflicts via The Operational Art of War (great wargame) that has some very detailed scenarios that portray the various Indo-Pak conflicts.

I've always been impressed at what the Pakistan armed forces have been able to accomplish given the circumstances (do more with less) but it's a factual reality that the circumstances are not terribly favourable (on paper) given how much larger India is.

As far as the jammers go thanks for that info. I had only seen that the PAF requested teh AN/ALQ-211 form the US but not word on whether they got them. the AN/ALQ-211 is the successor for the AN/ALQ-131 so I'm assuming Pakistan is requesting them because the ALQ-131 is no longer meeting their requirements.

The PAF needs to stay on top of the jamming game given the platform they are relying on (F-16) while the IAF needs to stay on top of the other side of the spectrum.

Fortunately for Pakistan, upgrading jammers tends to be cheaper than upgrading radar/ECCM packages. Of course, all that could change if the US extends the range of the future versions of the AMRAAM.

Keep in mind that quite a few NATO Airforces including the Dutch and Norwegians are using the same ALQ-131s with updates. With newer aircraft, you have the option of buying what is available in the market. This time around, PAF has opted for ALQ-211. US has sold them, Congress has been notified and they will be in Pakistan in June 2010.

 

[saiko]

I think I read somewhere that even PAF's current old jammer pods in use by the F-16 fleet were effective enough in the recent Anatolian Eagle exercises to stop anyone locking missiles on them at BVR. Could this be true? Maybe the new pods are geared towards countering newer, more advanced SAMs?

The thing about ECM/ECCM is that you can take the exact same jammer and the exact same radar trying to lock onto the jammer equipped plane at the exact same range and get different results everytime. Partially becauase environmental variables matter and partially because the algorithms used are insanely complicated and slightly different input data could change everything.

Most of the techniques used in ECM/ECCM are not new... you can trace many of the concepts back to operational use in WW2 to give you an idea of how the game works. It's mostly a question of efficiency/output/etc. It's possible older jammer pods would still be effective, but normally ECM and ECCM leapfrog each other. I develop a jammer, someone develops a radar resitant to that jammer. So I develop a new jammer and so on until the end of time .

 

[blain2]

The thing about ECM/ECCM is that you can take the exact same jammer and the exact same radar trying to lock onto the jammer equipped plane at the exact same range and get different results everytime. Partially becauase environmental variables matter and partially because the algorithms used are insanely complicated and slightly different input data could change everything.

Most of the techniques used in ECM/ECCM are not new... you can trace many of the concepts back to operational use in WW2 to give you an idea of how the game works. It's mostly a question of efficiency/output/etc. It's possible older jammer pods would still be effective, but normally ECM and ECCM leapfrog each other. I develop a jammer, someone develops a radar resitant to that jammer. So I develop a new jammer and so on until the end of time .

Actually this leapfrogging is the reason that they have started to come up with updates on the jammers instead of new jammers all the time. The ALQ-131 has had a pretty decent life (over 10 years) and has been able to stay current with updates. The key thing is the frequency of the emitter. You track signal and the RF over which it is being emitted and then record it. DRFM does this in real time and then allows playback which is what confuses the emitter because they are unable to distinguish the target which is essentially cloaked behind these played back frequencies. In the absence of DRFM, other ECM gear is loaded up with the threat libraries that have been gathered via the ELINT operations.

 

[SSMtr]

If that's how you read my last post then you're clearly a nationalist fanboy. Put the blinders back on if you want.

Fact: the Pakistan Air Force has requested jamming pods from the US. I do not know if the US will be selling them to the PAF, but even the PAF recognizes this need.

I guess the Pakistan Air Force is secretely made up of a bunch of India-sympathizers.

please calm down no flames in the forum.

 

[Sargodhian_Eagle]

Are F-16C/D are delivered to PAF coz in Wikipedia its mentioned that PAF is operating 44 F-16A/B n 4 F-16C/D

Plz clear which kind of F-16C/D are these? New or MLU

 

[HAIDER]

Plz post your question in F16 related thread or PAF related question thread.
thanks

 

[Neo]

No, the delivery of first Block 52 F-16D is expected in June 2010. Mlu delivery to start a year later.

 

[Neo]

Threads merged.

 

[Munir]

About DRFM... Without it a plane needs to return to base and they will add ECM for the next flight and all other planes. With DRFM it is able to counter immediately and send it ot home station or other planes in the area... So the enemy has no time to alter frequencies. If you go back to base then one can expect that next time you have another problem...

It is a matter of time before PAF enters DRFM era. JF17 ECM is pretty advanced and it is able to gain capacity. Whether it has DRFM we cannot know it but I do not think that adding high speed memory to already existing ECM is a huge problem for China or Pakistan.

 

[mean_bird]

Hv any person, model photo of F-16 52+ in PAF colour scheme?
Whn they r coming to PAF?

Sargodhian Eagle

There already exist threads for F-16 and Airforce thread. You should ask your questions in those threads instead of starting new ones. Otherwise, we have too many threads about the same topic.

To answer your question
-The pictures can be found in the PAF calender I posted. (check 2-3 pages back for PAF calender).
-F-16 C/D should be coming in beginning or middle of 2010.

U r rite but i hv a conclusion that i read in wikipedia that PAF is operating 44 F-16A/B n 4 F-16C/D
So in short reply clear to me that which F-16C/D r these? New or MLU

I was talking about the new ones that will start arriving sometime in 2010.

AFAIK, PAF has currently 44 A/B models + 2 which are currently undergoing MLU in the US. The make up of these is 32 we already had and 14 recieved from USAF (which were previously embargoed). Out of these 14, 2 are in US for MLU thus leaving 44 with us. The rest of the MLU will most probably be done in Pakistan with assistance from TAI once the MLU kits are received.

One more thing, the 14 ex-PAF planes that were embargoed are as follows


Peace Gate III
Plane ........... block...........total............... numbers...................status
F-16A block...... 15OCU.......... 6...................91729-34 .................embargoed
F-16B Block.......15OCU.......... 5 ..................91613-17................. embargoed

Peace Gate IV
Plane .............. block ...........total........... numbers........................status
F-16A Block .........15OCU ...........7 ...............92735-41 .....................embargoed
F-16B Block.......... 15OCU..........10................92618-19,93621-27....... embargoed

So you can see that these were F-16 OCU.

Here's some information about what exactly is in an OCU

- Designated Block 15OCU (Operational Capability Upgrade), these aircraft are powered by the more reliable F100-PW-220 turbofan.
- These aircraft also have structural strengthening and are provided with the enlarged HUD that was first introduced on the F-16C/D.
- Also incorporated are the capability to fire the Norwegian Penguin Mk.3 anti-shipping missile (built by Kongsberg, US designation AGM-119) and the AGM-65,
- provisions for the AIM-120 Amraam,
- radar altimeter,
- expanded computer capacity,
- data transfer unit,
- wide-angle HUD,
- AN/APX-101 IFF,
- Tracor AN/ALE-40 chaff/flare dispenser and
- provisions for the AN/ALQ-131 ECM pod.
- These modifications increased the max. TO weight to 37,500lbs (17,010kg).

Reference

Therefore PAF has 32 A/B, 12A/B OCU in service while 2 are in US getting MLU.

 

[Hasnain2009]

The Turkish Fighter Fleet Grows Anon

The Turkish Fighter Fleet Grows Anon
March 11, 2009: Turkey has bought another 30 F-16C Block 50 fighters, for over $60 million each. This will give Turkey one of the largest F-16s fleets (nearly 250) in the world. Like Israel, Turkey is upgrading its older F-16s. There are actually six major models of the F-16 currently in use, and identified by block number (32, 40, 42, 50, 52, 60), plus the Israeli F-16I, which is a major modification of the Block 52. Another special version (the Block 60), for the UAE (United Arab Emirates) is called the F-16E. The various block mods included a large variety of new components (five engines, four sets of avionics, five generations of electronic warfare gear, five radars and many other mechanical, software, cockpit and electrical mods.) Countries like Turkey can thus add the new components and turn an older F-16 into a more powerful late model. There are also some older (Block 1, 5, 15, 20, 25, 30) aircraft out there, all with two decade old technology.

Turkey is also becoming a bigger player in the upgrade market. For example, Pakistan is having a Turkish firm to upgrade elderly Pakistani F-16s from Block 15 configuration to Block 40. Now that the U.S. has lifted its arms embargo on Pakistan, there are many firms competing for all the work needed to update older American weapons still used by Pakistan. The Turks have long had good trade relations with Pakistan, and have also developed, with the help of the U.S. and Israel, a capable aircraft maintenance and upgrade industry. Most of the F-16 work will be done in Pakistan, using Turkish engineers and technicians supervising some local workers, and using largely imported (from Turkey and elsewhere) components.

The F-16 is the most numerous post-Cold War jet fighter, with over 4,200 built, and more in production. There are 24 nations using the F-16, and 14 have ordered more, in addition to their initial order. During The Cold War, Russia built over 10,000 MiG-21s, and the U.S over 5,000 F-4s, but since then warplane production has plummeted about 90 percent. But since the end of the Cold War, the F-16 has been popular enough to keep the production lines going. This despite the fact that the F-35 is supposed to replace the F-16. But the F-35 price keeps going up (it's headed north of $100 million per aircraft), and the F-16 continues to get the job done at half that price.