Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Notorious,

Goodman----. You see-----IAF has screwed itself up by placing its primary air bases so close to pakistani border that at time of take off to intercept incoming aircraft----the planes are already WVR-----.

If their primary bases were farther off----they could have stayed afloat for longer and taken long shots with impunity and at their discretion-----but they have given away their primary advantage of longer legs-----why would you have a SU30 sqdrn within 2 minutes of your border with pak----when you have this aircraft that can stay afloat for 4 plus hours------what a price we pay for our posturing and strut----.

Pathankot has 2 sqd there NO 3 SQD AND NO 26 SQD both have MIG-21 BIS.

The SU-30 are based in Ambala.

we are keeping good eye on them,

 

[Jango]

You're welcome, it's a difficult concept to describe. When weapons became both reliable, AND all-aspect, it changed the game forever.

I flew in the era of the AIM-7M, never fired an AIM-120. In fact, very few pilots ever fire more than 1 or 2 missiles in peace time. They are too expensive.

I fired an AIM-9L at a BQM Firebee drone. They put the drone into a 6 G turn, put you inside the turn circle, and clear you to fire. Since you are inside the circle, you need to do some BFM. For practice shots, they remove the warhead and replace it with a telemetry rig, and they then gather data on missile performance. This way, they give aircrews experience, and they also gather information on how the missiles perform.

Despite no warhead, they lose a lot of expensive drones because the missile spears the target. If the missile passes within about 10 meters (give or take) it is considered a hit, because the proximity fuse would detect the target and detonate the warhead. This blows pyrophoric debris and cuts through airframes like a knife through jello. Sets nasty fires.

If the drone survives, they deploy a parachute and attempt to recover the drone from the ocean:

If the drone is damaged and cannot be recovered, the range officers (flying nearby) are cleared in to kill the drone with a war-shot, a missile with a warhead. Or they are given clearance to gun it with HEI. This is more appropriate for full-sized drones like the QF-4. Of course, they love this job!

At the bottom of the ocean in the Gulf of Mexico and other places are possibly thousands of missiles and drones. I've often wondered if the SOviets attempted to dredge them up.

Having the live AIM-9L ($50,000 to $100,000) on my rail was like having a fine sports car hung there. I was almost tempted to say "Keep the missile, give me the $$, we'll all be happy." Of course that wasn't going to happen.

Real action stuff,

 

[Patriot]

You're welcome, it's a difficult concept to describe. When weapons became both reliable, AND all-aspect, it changed the game forever.

I flew in the era of the AIM-7M, never fired an AIM-120. In fact, very few pilots ever fire more than 1 or 2 missiles in peace time. They are too expensive.

I fired an AIM-9L at a BQM Firebee drone. They put the drone into a 6 G turn, put you inside the turn circle, and clear you to fire. Since you are inside the circle, you need to do some BFM. For practice shots, they remove the warhead and replace it with a telemetry rig, and they then gather data on missile performance. This way, they give aircrews experience, and they also gather information on how the missiles perform.

Despite no warhead, they lose a lot of expensive drones because the missile spears the target. If the missile passes within about 10 meters (give or take) it is considered a hit, because the proximity fuse would detect the target and detonate the warhead. This blows pyrophoric debris and cuts through airframes like a knife through jello. Sets nasty fires.

If the drone survives, they deploy a parachute and attempt to recover the drone from the ocean:

If the drone is damaged and cannot be recovered, the range officers (flying nearby) are cleared in to kill the drone with a war-shot, a missile with a warhead. Or they are given clearance to gun it with HEI. This is more appropriate for full-sized drones like the QF-4. Of course, they love this job!

At the bottom of the ocean in the Gulf of Mexico and other places are possibly thousands of missiles and drones. I've often wondered if the SOviets attempted to dredge them up.

Having the live AIM-9L ($50,000 to $100,000) on my rail was like having a fine sports car hung there. I was almost tempted to say "Keep the missile, give me the $$, we'll all be happy." Of course that wasn't going to happen.

Thank you so much for the explanation.I must say you had a excellent job.I wish i had that kind of job.Fighter Pilots are indeed very lucky people.

 

[Jango]

There are really THREE combat regimes, and one must understand that having actual sight of the opponent isn't the critical part.

Let's start at 0 meters to about 3000 meters. Picture a sphere around a jet. Anything in that sphere is inside the turning circle of the jet, and this is where classical BFM maneuvers take place... hard break turns, jinks, yo-yos, all the fun stuff. If I'm intruding inside a guy's turn circle, I must respond correctly, or his own maneuvering can threaten me.

From 3000 meters to maybe 8 nautical miles in the second regime. We can generally (but not always) see each other, but we are outside of each others' turn circles. What this means - picture my F-15 pointing at an F-16 8 miles ahead of me. The F-16 immediately goes into a wild 9G turn. All it looks like to me is a guy turning a tight circle. He stays in front of me. In fact, he stays within the HUD FOV. Easy kill using AIM-9 or a radar missile.

Outside of 8 to 10 nm, we exceed the range of most IR missiles, and the tools of choice are AMRAAM and others.

This is hard to describe, but what it boils down to is that most of the killing at a merge will take place in the middle regime. All you need to do is rotate your nose through 60, 90, 120 degrees, point and shoot. The guy dies. If a defender manages to get inside my own turn circle and neutralize my ability to point and shoot, I'll say "engaged neutral, need some help" and my wingman, who is outside of both of our turn circles, will rotate, point, and shoot him.

Survivors of the BVR barrage will almost all die from short, sharp hooks, fire, then we will extend/accelerate, and then bug out, as exploding airplanes will attract enemy eyes.

You mean, that the farther you are , the smaller the circle gets, and hence, the circle stays in your HUD for a long time giving more time for the shot. Just as in simulation games!!

 

[MastanKhan]

Pathankot has 2 sqd there NO 3 SQD AND NO 26 SQD both have MIG-21 BIS.

The SU-30 are based in Ambala.

we are keeping good eye on them,

Abou,

If I remember correctly, there is a sqdrn of SU 30 posted in srinagar as well.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

sometime back i did read something about a small handful (not even a squadron) of them based at Srinagar.....if true, i have no problem with it

the closer the better

 

[Jango]

Abou,

If I remember correctly, there is a sqdrn of SU 30 posted in srinagar as well.

Sukhois at Srinagar???,,,,seems a bit awkward>

 

[danger007]

F-16 will win . and stick on topic

don't be stupid. su-30mki is an air dominance fighter. dont compare an heavy class fighter with F-16's.

 

[Battle Axe]

don't be stupid. su-30mki is an air dominance fighter. dont compare an heavy class fighter with F-16's.

As for as the logic to compare is concerned. The Su 30 MKIs may very well have to face F 16s when the former are raiding & so, one of the two will have to bite dust, irrespective of their weight ceilings.

And if the adversary is Block 52+, the Flanker-H only ejects.

Sorry if I trolled, but I was only being fair.

 

[danger007]

As for as the logic to compare is concerned. The Su 30 MKIs may very well have to face F 16s when the former are raiding & so, one of the two will have to bite dust, irrespective of their weight ceilings.

And if the adversary is Block 52+, the Flanker-H only ejects.

Sorry if I trolled, but I was only being fair.

do you know what the difference between heavy class fighter ans medium .

 

[truthseeker2010]

Pathankot has 2 sqd there NO 3 SQD AND NO 26 SQD both have MIG-21 BIS.

The SU-30 are based in Ambala.

we are keeping good eye on them,

Su-30's are based in Ambala, pune, bareily and tezpur. We are keeping a sharp eye on them Sir.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

WRT to a WVR engagement, and of course with a skilled pilot (the most important aspect of all) -- the F-16 will shoot down the flanker. Hands down.

too many variables though, so it's hard to blindly speculate

 

[praful]

WRT to a WVR engagement, and of course with a skilled pilot (the most important aspect of all) -- the F-16 will shoot down the flanker. Hands down.

too many variables though, so it's hard to blindly speculate

and some people says Indians do trolling

 

[danger007]

WRT to a WVR engagement, and of course with a skilled pilot (the most important aspect of all) -- the F-16 will shoot down the flanker. Hands down.

too many variables though, so it's hard to blindly speculate

i said thanks for ur time machine you took us back to 1960 for WVR engagements and skilled pilot. most important aspect of all mean?????

now i get why babji said F16 will win.

 

[Jango]

And, TROLL FEST , better leave them alone sir, and not ruin this whole F-16, 260 page, well constructed thread in an instant.