Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2

[blain2]

1 - The original business case for the F16s was about 110 fighters and the infrastructure was setup to support that many - but PAF is now stuck at a little over 70 odd. So - alot of wasted time/effort/money in infrastructure to support a larger fleet than what PAF has ..
2 - The F16s spent a large portion of their life under sanctions with limited spare parts supplies which comprimised their actual military value during those sanctions. Parts were begged/borrowed and Kaiser has been clear in his commentary of the 2001 standoff with India, there wasn't enough spare parts to keep up the temp of operations.
3 - They just about got a MLU upgrade to take them to Block 50 standards when the 18 Block 52's were bought.
4 - There is no possibility of upgrading to V standard/AESA radars for the last 1/3 of their life.
5 - The Block 52+ were never allowed to be sold with DRFM jamming.
6 - No AIM-9X were sold - even though they got the Helmet that would have allowed them to be used.
7 - No real possibility of purchasing new F16s ..
8 - No possibility of even 2nd hard F16s to get to the original number of 110 that PAF planned.

I am sure others on this forum can highlight more reasons than what i have listed above... but it should give you a taste of why I dont think the F16 platform has been "allowed to achieve its full potential.".

Yes - the country is safer with the current fleet than not having it - but that is different to saying the acquisition of the F16s have fullfiled the original plans the PAF had and then allowed the full potential of what the platform should have been able to offer had it kept pace with the growth of the platform else where interms of capbility growth and upgrades.

The F16 fleet in the PAF will now wither away, decay and die prematurely as it will not be "allowed" to keep pace with the overall developments and enhancements of the F16 platform being made by the manufacturer.

The initial purchase was for 40 aircraft with the potential for the PAF to buy an additional 60+ aircraft (and even more) if finances and situation allowed it. PAF never built infrastructure beyond the 40 aircraft that were put in service so I am not sure what "infrastructure" for 110 aircraft was set up in Pakistan.

#2, Pakistan had spares to last a limited amount of time during the late 90s once embargoed. What you say not only applied to the F-16s but to the C-130s, Cobras, TPS radars etc. etc. Had a war been imposed on Pakistan, we would have used what was at our disposal (the same situation as with F-86s and F-104s in 1965 and 1971).

#3, All of the Pakistani F-16s (MLUs) are flying at blk-52 spec. in terms of avionics and weapons integration. The 50 vs 52 difference is simply in engines. If you fly 50, you are on GE engines, if you fly blk 52s, you have Pratt and Whitney power plants. All of Pakistani F-16s are running P&W engines with spares.

#4, There is an absolute possibility to upgrade ALL of PAF F-16s to V/AESA standard if we get clearance from the Americans. After the MLU done on the older F-16s, they also got the Falcon STAR upgrade on the structure which prolonged the life of these F-16s to 8000 hours! This is enough hours to last for another 30+ years of flying so all these aircraft are prime candidates for the Viper upgrade. Not sure where you got the 1/3 of their remaining life information from.

#5, In the absence of DRFM module on the F-16, PAF has other EW assets that are dedicated for these purposes. As such you can get around this issue. It isn't a must have for individual F-16s in a strike package.

#6, Given the proliferation of BVR, HOBS AAM like AIM-9x solution, while good to have, is not a major issue. With AIM-120s in abundance, the F-16 fleet is well served by AIM-9L/M and AIM-120Cs. Also keep in mind that JHMCS (Helmet) is not just used for AIM-9x, it is a great platform for cueing not only surface attack munitions but also for BVR AAMs.

On 7 and 8, all of it remains to be seen. If no from the USG, then no, however a fleet of 76 MR F-16s, all upgraded, is not a slouch in any case and this will remain a potent edge for some time along with the AESA equipped platforms being inducted now.

 

[FOOLS_NIGHTMARE]

 

[mshan44]

 

[Ghessan]

There is some sort of F-16 upgrade negotiations on going for Pakistani F-16's, im not sure what but let me get your details i'll ask my colleague whose F-16 expert and couldnt make it to DIMDEX 2022, and then i'll let you know Tomorrow - Lockeheed martin Rep at Dimdex 2022

did you get a chance to have some talk with LM people?

 

[baqai]

J-10's highly unlikely.

Don't have any clue 'bout any Viper Update.

It seems we have a Viper Update every 2nd Month. We must be on Update 87.0 by now.

haha ... one of our members mentioned something about going to an airbase for some upcoming viper updates, if my memory serves right it was @Raider 21 ? and than another member in a thread mentioned something about possibilities of having some updates to F-16s

fingers crossed

 

[Bratva]

did you get a chance to have some talk with

did you get a chance to have some talk with LM people?

I just did. No update. Will try one last time tomorrow. The Rep is from C-130 team in LM and I remembered C130j rumors were rife and ripe. She said no such thing. LM doesnt know anything about this @Tps43

F-16 V upgrade most probably?

Yup. But there is lot of confusion and fog of war. Keeping finger crossed

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I think the PAF will aggressively pursue the F-16V upgrade for its 18 Block-52+.

On the surface, this may sound like a superfluous program. However, when we dig into it, the F-16V upgrade would make a lot of sense.

First, these specific F-16s still have life. Not only that, but the OEM SLEP could add another 6,000 hours.

Second, while it's only a single squadron, you can still extract a lot of utility out of it in a conflict. The PAF would still have its AIM-120C5 and JDAM stocks as well as the SNIPER and DB110 compatibility. By equipping these fighters with an AESA radar and, potentially, a new BVRAAM and HOBS AAM, these jets would be a threat. In fact, at the minimum, you could at least negate the M2K-H.

Third, you'd get that modern-gen Western/Blue fighter platform. I'm sure that would be hugely valuable from a DACT perspective as the majority of your fleet (JF-17 and J-10CE) will be of Chinese/Gold origin. In other words, the bulk of our pilots would understand a modern Western fighter as well as the IAF's crews, but the latter won't know enough about Chinese aircraft. Moreover, you can still send an AESA radar-equipped unit out to Red Flag, Anatolian Eagle, etc via the F-16s.

Fourth, even if these F-16s become 'non-critical' (I don't think any fighter unit is redundant) by virtue of lots of JF-17 and J-10CEs, the PAF can allocate No.5 for coalition support or overseas deployment (e.g., in the Gulf, Jordan, Turkey, etc). We can connect these birds to a more assertive foreign policy. Granted, we can't do it without US permission, but where the "roads cross" we could take advantage of the opportunity.

Fifth, if by some chance the PAF does get access to used F-16C/D Block-32s, the OEM SLEP (6,000 hours) and F-16V upgrade would actually be a cost-effective package to further augment the fleet. You have an entire infrastructure line available for the PW-equipped F-16C/D. IMO any opportunity to expand the fleet, you take it. @SQ8

 

[Trailer23]

fingers crossed

Yaar, i'm in touch with a handful of Viper Drivers & no one has mentioned anything to me so far.

On a side note - [fingers cross kartay-kartay ungliyaan he tai'ri ho gae hain]

 

[WiderMan]

I think the PAF will aggressively pursue the F-16V upgrade for its 18 Block-52+.

On the surface, this may sound like a superfluous program. However, when we dig into it, the F-16V upgrade would make a lot of sense.

First, these specific F-16s still have life. Not only that, but the OEM SLEP could add another 6,000 hours.

Second, while it's only a single squadron, you can still extract a lot of utility out of it in a conflict. The PAF would still have its AIM-120C5 and JDAM stocks as well as the SNIPER and DB110 compatibility. By equipping these fighters with an AESA radar and, potentially, a new BVRAAM and HOBS AAM, these jets would be a threat. In fact, at the minimum, you could at least negate the M2K-H.

Third, you'd get that modern-gen Western/Blue fighter platform. I'm sure that would be hugely valuable from a DACT perspective as the majority of your fleet (JF-17 and J-10CE) will be of Chinese/Gold origin. In other words, the bulk of our pilots would understand a modern Western fighter as well as the IAF's crews, but the latter won't know enough about Chinese aircraft. Moreover, you can still send an AESA radar-equipped unit out to Red Flag, Anatolian Eagle, etc via the F-16s.

Fourth, even if these F-16s become 'non-critical' (I don't think any fighter unit is redundant) by virtue of lots of JF-17 and J-10CEs, the PAF can allocate No.5 for coalition support or overseas deployment (e.g., in the Gulf, Jordan, Turkey, etc). We can connect these birds to a more assertive foreign policy. Granted, we can't do it without US permission, but where the "roads cross" we could take advantage of the opportunity.

Fifth, if by some chance the PAF does get access to used F-16C/D Block-32s, the OEM SLEP (6,000 hours) and F-16V upgrade would actually be a cost-effective package to further augment the fleet. You have an entire infrastructure line available for the PW-equipped F-16C/D. IMO any opportunity to expand the fleet, you take it. @SQ8

Add 12 odd MLUs to those 18, which have the same airframes as the block 50/52s.

 

[MIRauf]

Add 12 odd MLUs to those 18, which have the same airframes as the block 50/52s.

Which 12 ? ADF Variants from Jordan ? the 12 odd that USAF was using ? all of them were block 15/15+ if not mistaken. 32 odd original birds and 12+ USAF ones went through MLU to be brought to Block-52+ spec but are not 'Block-52+ as Block-52+ initially built,' so not the same airframe as Block-52+.

 

[Trailer23]

...if by some chance the PAF does get access to used F-16C/D Block-32s, the OEM SLEP (6,000 hours) and F-16V upgrade would actually be a cost-effective package to further augment the fleet. You have an entire infrastructure line available for the PW-equipped F-16C/D. IMO any opportunity to expand the fleet, you take it. @SQ8

Romania seems to have walked away with quite a deal. 32 Vipers for the price of $514 Million.

Do you think there is anything out there PAF could get access to (with US nod) at that price tag for nearly that many?

 

[WiderMan]

Which 12 ? ADF Variants from Jordan ? the 12 odd that USAF was using ? all of them were block 15/15+ if not mistaken. 32 odd original birds and 12+ USAF ones went through MLU to be brought to Block-52+ spec but are not 'Block-52+ as Block-52+ initially built,' so not the same airframe as Block-52+.

The 12 out of 14 Peace Gate III/IV aircraft delivered in 08-09. Two were lost. These airframes can accommodate the 12k hours SLEP.

 

[The Eagle]

Yaar, i'm in touch with a handful of Viper Drivers & no one has mentioned anything to me so far.

On a side note - [fingers cross kartay-kartay ungliyaan he tai'ri ho gae hain]

I think this V upgrade/new kits argument isn't going away in near future.

 

[SQ8]

I think the PAF will aggressively pursue the F-16V upgrade for its 18 Block-52+.

On the surface, this may sound like a superfluous program. However, when we dig into it, the F-16V upgrade would make a lot of sense.

First, these specific F-16s still have life. Not only that, but the OEM SLEP could add another 6,000 hours.

Second, while it's only a single squadron, you can still extract a lot of utility out of it in a conflict. The PAF would still have its AIM-120C5 and JDAM stocks as well as the SNIPER and DB110 compatibility. By equipping these fighters with an AESA radar and, potentially, a new BVRAAM and HOBS AAM, these jets would be a threat. In fact, at the minimum, you could at least negate the M2K-H.

Third, you'd get that modern-gen Western/Blue fighter platform. I'm sure that would be hugely valuable from a DACT perspective as the majority of your fleet (JF-17 and J-10CE) will be of Chinese/Gold origin. In other words, the bulk of our pilots would understand a modern Western fighter as well as the IAF's crews, but the latter won't know enough about Chinese aircraft. Moreover, you can still send an AESA radar-equipped unit out to Red Flag, Anatolian Eagle, etc via the F-16s.

Fourth, even if these F-16s become 'non-critical' (I don't think any fighter unit is redundant) by virtue of lots of JF-17 and J-10CEs, the PAF can allocate No.5 for coalition support or overseas deployment (e.g., in the Gulf, Jordan, Turkey, etc). We can connect these birds to a more assertive foreign policy. Granted, we can't do it without US permission, but where the "roads cross" we could take advantage of the opportunity.

Fifth, if by some chance the PAF does get access to used F-16C/D Block-32s, the OEM SLEP (6,000 hours) and F-16V upgrade would actually be a cost-effective package to further augment the fleet. You have an entire infrastructure line available for the PW-equipped F-16C/D. IMO any opportunity to expand the fleet, you take it. @SQ8

The problem is that the diplomatic moves aren’t mirroring the PAF wishes. The state department really is pushing Pakistan out and the attempts to make them jealous by PDA with China isn’t working.
Any threat the Russians posed is being mowed down in Ukraine so now its going to be all about China. In that environment the only way Pakistan get the same attention is if the current government (and its policies) are displaced via regime change.

Yes a V upgrade would be great and the PAF will likely stock up on extra spares as it has done for the current crop. Without a HOBs and the AIM-120D though it would be a handicapped asset and it is unlikely those will be approved throughout the chain be it from the state or legislature.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

I think the PAF will aggressively pursue the F-16V upgrade for its 18 Block-52+.

On the surface, this may sound like a superfluous program. However, when we dig into it, the F-16V upgrade would make a lot of sense.

First, these specific F-16s still have life. Not only that, but the OEM SLEP could add another 6,000 hours.

Second, while it's only a single squadron, you can still extract a lot of utility out of it in a conflict. The PAF would still have its AIM-120C5 and JDAM stocks as well as the SNIPER and DB110 compatibility. By equipping these fighters with an AESA radar and, potentially, a new BVRAAM and HOBS AAM, these jets would be a threat. In fact, at the minimum, you could at least negate the M2K-H.

Third, you'd get that modern-gen Western/Blue fighter platform. I'm sure that would be hugely valuable from a DACT perspective as the majority of your fleet (JF-17 and J-10CE) will be of Chinese/Gold origin. In other words, the bulk of our pilots would understand a modern Western fighter as well as the IAF's crews, but the latter won't know enough about Chinese aircraft. Moreover, you can still send an AESA radar-equipped unit out to Red Flag, Anatolian Eagle, etc via the F-16s.

Fourth, even if these F-16s become 'non-critical' (I don't think any fighter unit is redundant) by virtue of lots of JF-17 and J-10CEs, the PAF can allocate No.5 for coalition support or overseas deployment (e.g., in the Gulf, Jordan, Turkey, etc). We can connect these birds to a more assertive foreign policy. Granted, we can't do it without US permission, but where the "roads cross" we could take advantage of the opportunity.

Fifth, if by some chance the PAF does get access to used F-16C/D Block-32s, the OEM SLEP (6,000 hours) and F-16V upgrade would actually be a cost-effective package to further augment the fleet. You have an entire infrastructure line available for the PW-equipped F-16C/D. IMO any opportunity to expand the fleet, you take it. @SQ8

There is room for 36 F16 V in fleet on top of existing 73 F16 C/D
a small upgrade and diversification is good idea but it depends also on seller

So far the problem has been on the seller side