Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2

[Thorough Pro]

Peace Gate I happened 40 years ago in 1980 when the Soviet Union was sitting in Afghanistan with Pakistan being the only barrier between the USSR and the warm water of the GULF that was the key passage of 80% of world oil trade. Even if Peace Gate I was financed 100% by KSA or the US gave them 100 free, and as a matter of fact, none of the two happened, what does it matter now? This is 2020. This is a new world.

PEACE GATE I & II, according to one of the first pilots to fly Vipers mentioned that it was partly Saudi financed. Not sure how accurate that is....

"We" means Pakistan, what else do you think?
We paid 40mil a pop for 40 planes and we paid everything from our own pockets, in those days our economy was the fastest growing economy in the region at more than 8% per annum and we were not hit by the democratic corruption of PPP and PML or the ethhnic cancer of MQM.

Don't know who we are.

And it was via FMS. Like I mentioned previously, not sure how accurate that was....

There might be no Muslim unity among the Muslim countries but the "Ummah" means followers of our holy prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) and I am proud and thankful to Allah to be an "Ummati", what do you mean there is no Ummah? What are you denying? or are just being careless in your choice of words and endangering your faith?

There's no such thing as the "ummah". Pakistan and other muslim countries have been criticising the gulf states for normalising relations with Israel and "selling out" the Palestinians, but are more than happy to continue the "deeper than seas, higher than mountains" relationship with China despite the Uighur issue and selling JF-17 to Myanmar. The "nuclear factor" is the primary interest of the gulf states in Pakistan.

On the Viper front, I doubt we'll see any new airframes. Used examples are a possibility, as well as upgrades, but other than that, US/Pakistan military ties will gradually fade.

 

[Raider 21]

Peace Gate I happened 40 years ago in 1980 when the Soviet Union was sitting in Afghanistan with Pakistan being the only barrier between the USSR and the warm water of the GULF that was the key passage of 80% of world oil trade. Even if Peace Gate I was financed 100% by KSA or the US gave them 100 free, and as a matter of fact, none of the two happened, what does it matter now? This is 2020. This is a new world.




"We" means Pakistan, what else do you think?
We paid 40mil a pop for 40 planes and we paid everything from our own pockets, in those days our economy was the fastest growing economy in the region at more than 8% per annum and we were not hit by the democratic corruption of PPP and PML or the ethhnic cancer of MQM.



There might be no Muslim unity among the Muslim countries but the "Ummah" means followers of our holy prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) and I am proud and thankful to Allah to be an "Ummati", what do you mean there is no Ummah? What are you denying? or are just being careless in your choice of words and endangering your faith?

Negative sir. By we I didn't know which organisation. Glad it happened. My old man flew them when they were factory fresh, the Viper was the best investment ever.

 

[MastanKhan]

ok so why the 10 years drama about 3.4b dollars that we sued USA then ultimately got paid in soya bean..come on!!!


This brings us back to the F-16s debacle. When the Pressler sanctions came into force, Pakistan was precluded from taking possession of 28 F-16s for which it had made payments until 1993, some three years after the sanctions commenced. Pakistan paid the Lockheed Corp. $658 million for the planes, and some reports suggest that Pakistan continued making payments based on Pentagon assurances that continued payments would ensure eventual delivery.


Pakistan did not get the planes and was assessed storage and maintenance costs of $50,000 per month for the planes that sat, becoming ever more obsolete, in the Arizona desert. This account is telling: Pakistan preferred to heed the roseate advice of the Pentagon over the clear lines of U.S. law.

Under threat of a Pakistani lawsuit, U.S. president Bill Clinton resolved the issue in late 1998. Pakistan received $464 million, mostly in cash, which was the remaining amount of the claim. Clinton also agreed to send Pakistan an additional $60 million worth of wheat. (New Zealand ultimately purchased the F-16s on a 10-year lease-purchase deal that totaled $105 million.)

U.S. to Pay Pakistan Back for Undelivered Jets (Published 1998)

US agrees to pay Pakistan $324.6 million in cash and additional $142.6 million through other means as reimbursement for 28 F-16 fighter jets that Pakistan paid for in 1989 but never received; in return, Pakistan will withdraw its claim to planes; New Zealand will lease them, and all proceeds...

www.nytimes.com

we means the poor people of Pakistan dying of hunger in 1990s..

Hi,

Whatever the deal was---150 million went to Benazir Bhutto----. She skimmed off that money from the top.

Paf was fool enough to go for the second batch of the F16's---. They were being told sanctions are coming but they never believed in the threat---.

They had cash at hand---Mirage 2K was ready at that time---I would looked the other way if Benazir skimmed the 150 mil on the mirages deal---.

At least we would have had a deadly weapon to fight our enemy.

Atleast Benazir / Zardari made the deal on the RIGHT PRODUCT---. I am talking about the navy submarines---. Pak navy was looking for british subs---but there was no kick back on them for Benazir---. They went to the french---even though they skimmed the money from the top---we got the best subarines of the time---almost the most advanced subs in asia---.

The British subs the pak navy was lokking for in their ONEST DEAL---they became a rusting hulk over 1/2 a decade ago---.

That HONEST DEAL would have been the worst deal for the country---.

 

[Raider 21]

Hi,

Whatever the deal was---150 million went to Benazir Bhutto----. She skimmed off that money from the top.

Paf was fool enough to go for the second batch of the F16's---. They were being told sanctions are coming but they never believed in the threat---.

They had cash at hand---Mirage 2K was ready at that time---I would looked the other way if Benazir skimmed the 150 mil on the mirages deal---.

At least we would have had a deadly weapon to fight our enemy.

Atleast Benazir / Zardari made the deal on the RIGHT PRODUCT---. I am talking about the navy submarines---. Pak navy was looking for british subs---but there was no kick back on them for Benazir---. They went to the french---even though they skimmed the money from the top---we got the best subarines of the time---almost the most advanced subs in asia---.

The British subs the pak navy was lokking for in their ONEST DEAL---they became a rusting hulk over 1/2 a decade ago---.

That HONEST DEAL would have been the worst deal for the country---.

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They did try for it in the 90s

 

[MastanKhan]

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They did try for it in the 90s

Hi,

That was much later---and a goody two shoes a too honest of an air force officer sabotaged the protection of the motherland by delaying the deal---.

At that time---urgency---time---fast quick answer was the answer---an intentional delay jeopardized the safety of pakistan from which it has yet to recover---.

A weapons purchase must never be delayed for corruption---because the news of corruption has been spread by your enemies so that you don't get the weapons to kill them.

 

[mshan44]

 

[Aamir Hussain]

Hi,

That was much later---and a goody two shoes a too honest of an air force officer sabotaged the protection of the motherland by delaying the deal---.

At that time---urgency---time---fast quick answer was the answer---an intentional delay jeopardized the safety of Pakistan from which it has yet to recover---.

A weapons purchase must never be delayed for corruption---because the news of corruption has been spread by your enemies so that you don't get the weapons to kill them.

And you feel there would not have been similar problems operating Mirage 2000 with the French specially when India started hounding us wherever we try to purchase stiff from in the west?

Both decisions had their pros and cons!

 

[MastanKhan]

And you feel there would not have been similar problems operating Mirage 2000 with the French specially when India started hounding us wherever we try to purchase stiff from in the west?

Both decisions had their pros and cons!

Hi,

French never had any problems selling to both sides---.

As a matter of fact---the French were desperate to sell the M2K's to pakistan at an earlier date and as well as the Rafale at a later date---.

Who better than the PAF to advertise your wares other than Israel.

Our issues with the French came up when we deceived them multiple times.

And these issues are much much recent---.

We got the most advanced subs in our region from the French---the augusta 90 B's.

We got an extremely potent ROSE upgrade for our older mirages---.

The JF17 that we started building in mid 2000's was available to us in the form of the mirage F1 in the early 80's---lock stock & barrel---.

And yet we tend to blame the French---.

 

[Imran Khan]

Hi,

French never had any problems selling to both sides---.

As a matter of fact---the French were desperate to sell the M2K's to pakistan at an earlier date and as well as the Rafale at a later date---.

Who better than the PAF to advertise your wares other than Israel.

Our issues with the French came up when we deceived them multiple times.

And these issues are much much recent---.

We got the most advanced subs in our region from the French---the augusta 90 B's.

We got an extremely potent ROSE upgrade for our older mirages---.

The JF17 that we started building in mid 2000's was available to us in the form of the mirage F1 in the early 80's---lock stock & barrel---.

And yet we tend to blame the French---.

سر کرونا وائرس بنانے اور پھیلانے میں پاکستان ائیر فورس کے کردار پر روشنی ڈال کر ہمیں مستفید فرمائیں

 

[Readerdefence]

Hi basically we all should keep one thing in mind a Country like Pakistan whose economy is always upside should stick to one & only one country even now Pakistani are not fully piggybacking China want to ride both the boats
this kind of scenario can be good if you have a sound and firm economy where you have the leverage to buy things according to your desire and plan
i believe so F16 saga is a bygone scenario until unless some miracle happen which is not possible at the moment so at the moment best scenario is China and to some extent involve Russians in local businesses like at the moment they trying to lay a oil pipe line should have involved them to run steel mills again in this way when they have their stakes in Pakistan they will stand behind and supply things according to our desire
thank you

 

[Yasser76]

Hi,

French never had any problems selling to both sides---.

As a matter of fact---the French were desperate to sell the M2K's to pakistan at an earlier date and as well as the Rafale at a later date---.

Who better than the PAF to advertise your wares other than Israel.

Our issues with the French came up when we deceived them multiple times.

And these issues are much much recent---.

We got the most advanced subs in our region from the French---the augusta 90 B's.

We got an extremely potent ROSE upgrade for our older mirages---.

The JF17 that we started building in mid 2000's was available to us in the form of the mirage F1 in the early 80's---lock stock & barrel---.

And yet we tend to blame the French---.

Agree to an extent here but politics as well as economics play a role here, it's not just about simple deals anymore. We are allied with Turkey, France is facing off with Turkey in the Med, and also basing troops/planes on UAE, in addition the Scorpene and Rafale projects in India.

 

[FuturePAF]

This obsession of F-16 is to the point of disgusting right now, and people need to move on. US interests have changes to containing China, why would they arm Pakistan now.

It’s the cheapest option considering all the infrastructure built and training given to our pilots and maintainers for the F-16. Consider the PAF still maintains it wants to reach approx. 119 F-16s, it will try to get them if they can when relations improve with the US.

While I agree the PAF should just move on make the best JF-17 Block III they can, Moving also means signaling a break from the US. The PAF likes its western systems, but as the gap closes between the Chinese products and the Western products that chapter maybe closing itself.

Also a FMS would be tied to getting out of FATF and acquiring an aircraft (Block 72) that is on par with the Rafale, which can be relatively quickly inducted.

 

[airomerix]

Peace gate 1 budgeted to 1.1B USD back in 1981. We acquired $500 Million 'loan' from Saudi Arabia that was later repayed.

 

[mingle]

Peace gate 1 budgeted to 1.1B USD back in 1981. We acquired $500 Million 'loan' from Saudi Arabia that was later repayed.

Any update on US side procurement like zulus or vipers even EDA stuff??

 

[MastanKhan]

It’s the cheapest option considering all the infrastructure built and training given to our pilots and maintainers for the F-16. Consider the PAF still maintains it wants to reach approx. 119 F-16s, it will try to get them if they can when relations improve with the US.

While I agree the PAF should just move on make the best JF-17 Block III they can, Moving also means signaling a break from the US. The PAF likes its western systems, but as the gap closes between the Chinese products and the Western products that chapter maybe closing itself.

Also a FMS would be tied to getting out of FATF and acquiring an aircraft (Block 72) that is on par with the Rafale, which can be relatively quickly inducted.

Hi,

The soldiers cares less about the infrastructure---.

Let me ask a realistic question---it is a matter of life and death of a nation & I am an old man---.

If your mom or dad were dying today and they needed medicine---would you only go to the pharmacy that is well established but does not sell you the medicine---.

Or you might go to another source which has a similar product that could work and is ready to give you the prescription---.