Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2

[FuturePAF]

Hi,

The soldiers cares less about the infrastructure---.

Let me ask a realistic question---it is a matter of life and death of a nation & I am an old man---.

If your mom or dad were dying today and they needed medicine---would you only go to the pharmacy that is well established but does not sell you the medicine---.

Or you might go to another source which has a similar product that could work and is ready to give you the prescription---.

You maybe an older man, but you know the PAF. They don’t want to let go. Like I said in the second paragraph; as the JF-17 improves the chapter will close itself. A bird in hand is worth two in the bush to answer your question.

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

Can't believe these threads are still running.

People on here can't guage the resentment US establishment has for Pakistan. Or any other pro muslim/ anti Israel state. They blame us for their 2 decades of stalemate in Afghanistan.

Even people sitting on streets in Pakistan know this.

Biden admin might give you a few but there'll be a lot more of arm twisting along with it.

F16 is past I believe for PAF. With maybe a small chance of some more.

Sir. It is not a one way street when dealing with French. I am privy to some of the happenings where the French jacked us!!! The Daphne deal was tainted with mis-commitments from the very start. Maint. manuals were in French and were charged separately for translation when it should have been included in the deal. PN sent officers to learn French to get over this but in the end had to pay out their of their noses to get the maint. manual translated at ridiculous prices.

Later in the life cycle of Daphne, The manufacturer one day informed PN that they would no longer be manufacturing the specialized main batteries for the Sub!!! These were the main propulsion batteries for underwater running! All of a sudden the whole sub fleet of PN was now under threat of becoming un-seaworthy!!! Efforts were made to find and procure all batteries that were available around the world. In the end PN had to find and stock two warehouses worth of batteries procured from France, Portugal and some from Spain! A expense that was not envisaged nor was highlighted when selling the subs to PN by the French!! I was part of the effort to find these remaining batteries from around the world.

However, let us not go by what is known/unknown or whispered behind the scenes. Let us go by the facts:

1. Mirage 2000: 601 produced for 6 air forces from 1978 to 2007
2. Mirage F-1: 720 produced for 4 air forces from 1966 to 1992
3. F-16 and Derivatives:

That's why I am against buying overpriced stuff from gora. Performs well most of the time. But there is better value out there now compared to the past. More vendors to choose from.

 

[SD 10]

Can't believe these threads are still running.

People on here can't guage the resentment US establishment has for Pakistan. Or any other pro muslim/ anti Israel state. They blame us for their 2 decades of stalemate in Afghanistan.

Even people sitting on streets in Pakistan know this.

Biden admin might give you a few but there'll be a lot more of arm twisting along with it.

F16 is past I believe for PAF. With maybe a small chance of some more.


That's why I am against buying overpriced stuff from gora. Performs well most of the time. But there is better value out there now compared to the past. More vendors to choose from.

but those generals never learns!! they are stubborn as hell!

 

[Ghessan]

Can't believe these threads are still running.

People on here can't guage the resentment US establishment has for Pakistan. Or any other pro muslim/ anti Israel state. They blame us for their 2 decades of stalemate in Afghanistan.

Even people sitting on streets in Pakistan know this.

Biden admin might give you a few but there'll be a lot more of arm twisting along with it.

F16 is past I believe for PAF. With maybe a small chance of some more.

i agree, when the Afghan issue is over they may start blaming us for those 2 decades ignoring the face saving and humiliation but it again depend upon the policy they follow for us in the upcoming Biden govt.

F-16 will be a welcome addition if got a chance otherwise PAF has moved already.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Hi,

Whatever the deal was---150 million went to Benazir Bhutto----. She skimmed off that money from the top.

Paf was fool enough to go for the second batch of the F16's---. They were being told sanctions are coming but they never believed in the threat---.

They had cash at hand---Mirage 2K was ready at that time---I would looked the other way if Benazir skimmed the 150 mil on the mirages deal---.

At least we would have had a deadly weapon to fight our enemy.

Atleast Benazir / Zardari made the deal on the RIGHT PRODUCT---. I am talking about the navy submarines---. Pak navy was looking for british subs---but there was no kick back on them for Benazir---. They went to the french---even though they skimmed the money from the top---we got the best subarines of the time---almost the most advanced subs in asia---.

The British subs the pak navy was lokking for in their ONEST DEAL---they became a rusting hulk over 1/2 a decade ago---.

That HONEST DEAL would have been the worst deal for the country---.

Yaar Lala,
you have mentioned time again some missed opportunities like Mirage 2000 and the PAF giving away money for 2005 earthquake.

your post deserves a separate thread to talk in detail. this is very interesting story.
the beauty of a real forum discussion is that we don't always have to agree with everything we say to each other.
I agree with your argument to the best weapon for your men and put the morality sermons on a side if they are coming in the way of something crucial for defense. regarding Benazir govt deal with French on Mirage 2000 I recall (late 80s early 90s) that time it used to be with the French nuclear plant as well but both didn't materialize. Benazir's first or second Govt.

I also recall the Jang Daily quoting the Mirage 2000s at $120 Mil per unit compared to $46 Mil per unit for F-16 (If figures are wrong then I blame my memory or limited knowledge of our Urdu daily defence reporters).

talking about kickbacks, our Naval Admirals were never any faints either,. thing is , what good is an effective and economical F-16 if we are barred from buying it? and in my view all international defence deals

I dare say, had we gone with Mirage 2000s then our relationship with Desault and French in general would've been to another level (which we never got with Lockheed or Americans).

 

[The Eagle]

Regretfully, I had to thread ban few of you for sometime so that you can move your off-topic discussion to relevant or appropriate thread and not to derail subject here. The action is taken because a request as such was ignored.

Regards,

 

[Trailer23]

But there is better value out there now compared to the past. More vendors to choose from.

Such as...

How many vendors are there to choose from? Pickings are slim.

With the exception of Chinese, I don't see anything being available to Pakistan.

We can't deal with the Swedes (SAAB), because of India and because the US will block its Sale (US Components)
We won't deal with the French (Rafale), because of India.
We can't/won't deal with Russia (Su-/MiG-), because CAATSA/India.
EU's Typhoon will cost us a lot & UK won't let the deal go through because of Big Brother.

...& we can't get our hands on used-F-16's 'cause US won't allow it.

So, again - which vendors are currently available to us that we can explore?

I may face some backlash for this, but realistically - the J-10C is a poor-man's F-16 with all its capabilities and what it brings to the table.

 

[Talon]

I may face some backlash for this, but realistically - the J-10C is a poor-man's F-16 with all its capabilities and what it brings to the table.

J10 C is a great platform but JF-17 block 3 would be able to provide the same in much less cost, that's why PAF never wanted it..

 

[Trailer23]

...but JF-17 block 3 would be able to provide the same in much less cost, that's why PAF never wanted it..

Less cost, yes. But still not convinced if its at par with the J-10 because of difference in size & payload carried.

But, we haven't really seen anything to tell us what the Block III can carry. Maybe with those new Wings @Windjammer showed earlier there might be more than meets the eye.

I was merely trying to bring some kind of comparison to the F-16's that we operate.

To me, atleast - the J-10 seems a better compliment to the F-16, as opposed to JF-17.

...that's why PAF never wanted it..

Conflicting statement, my friend.

Never wanted it or doesn't (still) want it? Never mind. A discussion for another topic perhaps...

 

[RIP Pak LAW]

Yaar Lala,
you have mentioned time again some missed opportunities like Mirage 2000 and the PAF giving away money for 2005 earthquake.

your post deserves a separate thread to talk in detail. this is very interesting story.
the beauty of a real forum discussion is that we don't always have to agree with everything we say to each other.
I agree with your argument to the best weapon for your men and put the morality sermons on a side if they are coming in the way of something crucial for defense. regarding Benazir govt deal with French on Mirage 2000 I recall (late 80s early 90s) that time it used to be with the French nuclear plant as well but both didn't materialize. Benazir's first or second Govt.

I also recall the Jang Daily quoting the Mirage 2000s at $120 Mil per unit compared to $46 Mil per unit for F-16 (If figures are wrong then I blame my memory or limited knowledge of our Urdu daily defence reporters).

talking about kickbacks, our Naval Admirals were never any faints either,. thing is , what good is an effective and economical F-16 if we are barred from buying it? and in my view all international defence deals

I dare say, had we gone with Mirage 2000s then our relationship with Desault and French in general would've been to another level (which we never got with Lockheed or Americans).

Had we opted for Mirage 2000s, India would had bought F16s. Their relationship with Lockheed Martin would had been to another level as well. PAF path probably would had been Mirage 2000s to Rafale where IAF it would had been F16s to F18s. Perhaps we would had more freedom with rafales as compared to F16s.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Had we opted for Mirage 2000s, India would had bought F16s. Their relationship with Lockheed Martin would had been to another level as well. PAF path probably would had been Mirage 2000s to Rafale where IAF it would had been F16s to F18s. Perhaps we would had more freedom with rafales as compared to F16s.

despite whatever route we took or could take LM offered Indians the best F-16s the F-21.
Mirage 2000s or not

 

[Windjammer]

 

[Talon]

I was merely trying to bring some kind of comparison to the F-16's that we operate.

To me, atleast - the J-10 seems a better compliment to the F-16, as opposed to JF-17.

Conflicting statement, my friend.

Never wanted it or doesn't (still) want it? Never mind. A discussion for another topic perhaps...

F-16 is a living legend,no comparison in my view

Never wanted it but..Majbori,will tell you...

 

[JamD]

F-16 is a living legend,no comparison in my view

Never wanted it but..Majbori,will tell you...

A few of us have speculated the following. More and more option 1 seems like what's happening with maybe a bit of 2 (depending on opinions within the PAF I am guessing).

Let me preface this with saying that I have no sources whatsoever. I am merely putting 2 and 2 together based on available information/speculation.

I believe there is some impediment to the JF-17 BLK3 carrying the PL-15. One of the two or both:
1. China is pushing the sale of J-10C by refusing to sell us PL15 unless we buy the J-10C.
2. There are limitations of the JF-17BLK3 radar that limit the employable range of the PL15.

1. Yes.
2. B3 will not be made in enough numbers and even in numbers will not be used against Rafales, directly. We’d be using the off the shelf buy for that.

 

[Tipu7]

Shouldn't we enclose the entire J10C - F16 saga simply as byproduct of 'political circumstances'?

China need customer for J10 family now and if it's closest allay is not buying it despite of repeated evaluations, then it delivers a bad impression of aircraft in export market.

Similarly in shape of J10C deal, Pakistan can send message to our moody Western allies that PAF hands are not tied as far as fighter aircrafts are concerned. Therefore, Pakistan cannot be coerced via fighter aircraft diplomacy by Western powers.