Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2

[MastanKhan]

I totally agree paf should have taken those 6 iaf fighters down

They missed a golden opportunity

Yes I agree we do not want escalation etc but the opportunity to kill was there and they did not avail it. Two is a good number but that could have been 8 or 10 just imagine

Hi,

It would have been like breaking the enemy's back with a sledge hammer---.

Those 6 aircraft and the submarine---that would have literally shocked the day lights out of the enemy and other nay sayers of pakistan---.

That was the time to break the myth of the SU30 once for all---but sadly for the cowardice of the air force general---Paf allowed the enemy to gather back its wits and resource---.

 

[loanranger]

Hi,

For all these years---MKI has been THE CHALLENGE---they claimed it---we trained for it---.

When the time came---we were ready for it---but not ready enough---.

If we could have shot down those 6-7 escaping SU30's---the effect would have been momentous---.

In army term---when 1/3rd of an army division is destroyed---the whole of the division is basically finished---.

That would have broken the back of the enemy air force from which they could have never come out---.

6 SU30's being shot down by the JF17's---the enemy air force commanders would have committed suicide---. They would not have been able to show their faces in any excercizes with foreign countries---.

There are varying accounts of how many BVRs were launched by us that day. Indians say around five while we say only two clearances were given. Remember 'Amraam dodgers'. Thats them implying they evaded some. So who knows maybe we did try for more than two kills.
As to why we let the golden chance go when we had them by the throat is very simple. Had we bombed all our targets on ground and in air we probably would be in war even today. There will be better chances in the future. Next time they will come with a point to prove and I agree next time holding back or showing indecision will be treason against the nation. However, in the 2019 scenario a gracefull exit was given to Indians to buy us some time to reinforce. Rafales with their meteors are the real dilemma now. IAF will now be able to take potshots aswell. Indians have already asked the French to send a few of them with their first few rafales.

On a side note, those MKI sticks have been there for years. They've been looking at that for almost 15 years or more.

So where are the Rafale sticks . We might be needing them soon.

 

[Ghessan]

Hi,

It would have been like breaking the enemy's back with a sledge hammer---.

Those 6 aircraft and the submarine---that would have literally shocked the day lights out of the enemy and other nay sayers of pakistan---.

That was the time to break the myth of the SU30 once for all---but sadly for the cowardice of the air force general---Paf allowed the enemy to gather back its wits and resource---.

and the panic would have been passed on to the coming Rafale drivers hence consequences and the results in a future encounter would have been much awaited by PAF high ups along with the nation.

 

[syed_yusuf]

There are varying accounts of how many BVRs were launched by us that day. Indians say around five while we say only two clearances were given. Remember 'Amraam dodgers'. Thats them implying they evaded some. So who knows maybe we did try for more than two kills.
As to why we let the golden chance go when we had them by the throat is very simple. Had we bombed all our targets on ground and in air we probably would be in war even today. There will be better chances in the future. Next time they will come with a point to prove and I agree next time holding back or showing indecision will be treason against the nation. However, in the 2019 scenario a gracefull exit was given to Indians to buy us some time to reinforce. Rafales with their meteors are the real dilemma now. IAF will now be able to take potshots aswell. Indians have already asked the French to send a few of them with their first few rafales.


So where are the Rafale sticks . We might be needing them soon.

I know what u r saying and I agreed on bombing part but taking out air asserts is Different ball game altogather. Remember they violated our space and remember they threatened us .. do take out all 8-10 targets in the air is totally legit

Also paf can provide higher aewcs density than India .. so the upper hand we would have achieved would have gone a long way ....

 

[Dreamer.]

Hi,

For all these years---MKI has been THE CHALLENGE---they claimed it---we trained for it---.

When the time came---we were ready for it---but not ready enough---.

If we could have shot down those 6-7 escaping SU30's---the effect would have been momentous---.

In army term---when 1/3rd of an army division is destroyed---the whole of the division is basically finished---.

That would have broken the back of the enemy air force from which they could have never come out---.

6 SU30's being shot down by the JF17's---the enemy air force commanders would have committed suicide---. They would not have been able to show their faces in any excercizes with foreign countries---.

You are imagining stuff as usual, thinking as always that sitting in your armchair, you know way more than professionals. JF-17 didn't take down any Su-30, F-16 did. It is in no way certain that JF-17 could have taken out 6 Su-30's but didn't. Many details of the February events are classified on both sides. And here you are waving your hands in the air and screaming cowardice on purely imaginary scenario.
You are like the Sheikh Chilli who lost all his land and cattle and his entire family just because he lost one container of oil.

Not to say that cowardice has never been displayed by those in power but that's a different subject and unrelated.

 

[MastanKhan]

You are imagining stuff as usual, thinking as always that sitting in your armchair, you know way more than professionals. JF-17 didn't take down any Su-30, F-16 did. It is in no way certain that JF-17 could have taken out 6 Su-30's but didn't. Many details of the February events are classified on both sides. And here you are waving your hands in the air and screaming cowardice on purely imaginary scenario.
You are like the Sheikh Chilli who lost all his land and cattle and his entire family just because he lost one container of oil.

Not to say that cowardice has never been displayed by those in power but that's a different subject and unrelated.

manners make a man—-but you being pakistani—-not much can expected from you. It is not in your culture and neither did you parents teach you that.

 

[monitor]

I totally agree paf should have taken those 6 iaf fighters down

They missed a golden opportunity

Yes I agree we do not want escalation etc but the opportunity to kill was there and they did not avail it. Two is a good number but that could have been 8 or 10 just imagine

Your goal is not to break the myth of mki but to get free Kashmir, so better prepare properly to fight a full fledge war with India.

 

[denel]

You are imagining stuff as usual, thinking as always that sitting in your armchair, you know way more than professionals. JF-17 didn't take down any Su-30, F-16 did. It is in no way certain that JF-17 could have taken out 6 Su-30's but didn't. Many details of the February events are classified on both sides. And here you are waving your hands in the air and screaming cowardice on purely imaginary scenario.
You are like the Sheikh Chilli who lost all his land and cattle and his entire family just because he lost one container of oil.

Not to say that cowardice has never been displayed by those in power but that's a different subject and unrelated.

That was the best time to have put JF-17s on the front foot and taken Su's down. We can argue merits but that was real situational setting to put entire jf-17 system through its paces; first blood on jf-17s was there but it was not taken advantage of.

 

[Haris Ali2140]

That was the best time to have put JF-17s on the front foot and taken Su's down. We can argue merits but that was real situational setting to put entire jf-17 system through its paces; first blood on jf-17s was there but it was not taken advantage of.

It was tit for tat operation.

IMO even shotting down a jet wasn't a part of it. But when mig crossed LOC we could do everything with it as long as it happens on our side.

 

[Dreamer.]

manners make a man—-but you being pakistani—-not much can expected from you. It is not in your culture and neither did you parents teach you that.

So you can say whatever you like about anyone you like but if someone calls you out its suddenly bad manners??
There was nothing in my post that was bad manners. On the other hand one only has to go through your posts on the forum to know what bad manners actually means.

I am beginning to understand why many people have you on their ignore list.

That was the best time to have put JF-17s on the front foot and taken Su's down. We can argue merits but that was real situational setting to put entire jf-17 system through its paces; first blood on jf-17s was there but it was not taken advantage of.

You can't be the judge of that. You don't know what was possible and what was not. In India/Pakistan scenario we also have to worry about how far from the border the engagement is and where wreckage will fall, given the situation, threat level etc. Lots of factors are there. I am sure PAF was eager to put JF-17 through its paces aswell but they have to consider all aspects.

 

[denel]

So you can say whatever you like about anyone you like but if someone calls you out its suddenly bad manners??
There was nothing in my post that was bad manners. On the other hand one only has to go through your posts on the forum to know what bad manners actually means.

I am beginning to understand why many people have you on their ignore list.


You can't be the judge of that. You don't know what was possible and what was not. In India/Pakistan scenario we also have to worry about how far from the border the engagement is and where wreckage will fall, given the situation, threat level etc. Lots of factors are there. I am sure PAF was eager to put JF-17 through its paces aswell but they have to consider all aspects.

yes i know but friend, i was on many fronts and talking from experience; my reaction would be to throw it at them as these situations dont occur; it was i guess may be a measured response but it was needed for R&D work

 

[araz]

That was the best time to have put JF-17s on the front foot and taken Su's down. We can argue merits but that was real situational setting to put entire jf-17 system through its paces; first blood on jf-17s was there but it was not taken advantage of.

I think PAF followed strict non war time protocol of shooting at only those planes which were in Pak territory. I suspect the others were locked on but turned back before they could be shot. PAF is right that it had locks on the MKIs but I strongly suspect they were either inside Indian territory or PAF was not sure their debris would fall inside Pak lands for it to be a legit hit.
There were other issues of escalation as well. I think it is also fairto say PAF gave the IAF A black eye but still allowed ita face saving exit.
A

 

[WiderMan]

ADF at the onset of a night sortie. Do the ADFs have NVG compatibility? Because, to the best of my knowledge, no NVIS mods were done on them.

Twin-stick Block 52+

 

[Raider 21]

ADF at the onset of a night sortie. Do the ADFs have NVG compatibility? Because, to the best of my knowledge, no NVIS mods were done on them.View attachment 593043

Doesn't stop them from night flying without NVG.

 

[aliyusuf]

I think PAF followed strict non war time protocol of shooting at only those planes which were in Pak territory. I suspect the others were locked on but turned back before they could be shot. PAF is right that it had locks on the MKIs but I strongly suspect they were either inside Indian territory or PAF was not sure their debris would fall inside Pak lands for it to be a legit hit.
There were other issues of escalation as well. I think it is also fairto say PAF gave the IAF A black eye but still allowed ita face saving exit.
A

Agreed, Sir.
Without that face saving exit, India would have had no option but to escalate the situation, even though it hadn't planned to. That would only have developed into a full scale war, which either side could ill afford. Hence, whatever happened ... it was the best possible outcome under those circumstances.