Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2

[ice_man]

Why are you all so happy, don't you think ur country should be treated better? I mean the blk 52 is a plane which even the damn Polish Air force possesses, wht is the fuss abt? US isn't treating u like a major ally! But instead of being critical u people r getting very happy :?

SERIOUSLY FINALLY SOMEONE WITH A SENSE OF THINGS!!! our rivals gets offered BLK 70s and they get god knows ToT as well and you name it!!! while we are just happy getting some BLK 52s....i dunno what the fuss is about...

i guess US has realized make pakistan feel so starved that even if we just throw a bone to them they get happy!!!

 

[raveolution]

Till 2010/11

PAF
50 to 70 - JF-17
55 - F-16 (all upgraded to Block 52)
8 to 10 - J-10B
80 Mirage ROSE III
55 F- 7PG
______________________

Not a bad fleet to counter 150 MKI, 60-80 MIG 29 and 45 Mirage 2K till 2010 / 11.
(Keeping in mind, Indian Air force is designed to defend from PAF & PLAAF)

Mzubair bro we've had these discussions so many time... LOL..

PAF in 2010/11 will be:

28 JF17 (8 currently plus 20 more next year, thats the rate of production mentioned by the ACM in his speech... link is somewhere on this forum, which is in itself pretty high.)

55 F16's but not all upgraded. Only the first batch has started upgradation and this programme will end by 2012-13.

Absolutely no J10's. The J10'B' is still under development and the Pakistani FC 20 will be ready only by 2014-15 at best. This has already been discussed in the J10 thread.

Mirage Rose and F7 numbers are okay.

As regards the IAF, India around 2010-11will have around

175 MKI's (due to the recent order of 50 more from Russia directly. The entire program of 280 MKI's will be finished by 2014-15. Additionally, the MLU program would also have begun.)

60 Mig 29 upgraded to SMT (Mig 33 standards)

51 Mirage 2000 (upgraded to 5 standard)

U forgot the 100 Mig 27's and 140 Jaguars and 125 Mig 21 Bisons, forget about the LCA and the MRCA which will only start deliveries by 2012.

That makes it PAF-215 vs IAF 640, though i suspect PAF will still retain its much older Mirage and F7's until newer aircraft arrive.

Also, the Air force will never hesitate to use its full force, even fighters from its eastern bases in the event of a war, unless China declares war as well, whose stand on this issue was demonstrated in the 1965/71 wars.

Please feel free to disagree and let me know if my numbers are off.

 

[batmannow]

Mzubair bro we've had these discussions so many time... LOL..

PAF in 2010/11 will be:

28 JF17 (8 currently plus 20 more next year, thats the rate of production mentioned by the ACM in his speech... link is somewhere on this forum, which is in itself pretty high.)

55 F16's but not all upgraded. Only the first batch has started upgradation and this programme will end by 2012-13.

Absolutely no J10's. The J10'B' is still under development and the Pakistani FC 20 will be ready only by 2014-15 at best. This has already been discussed in the J10 thread.

Mirage Rose and F7 numbers are okay.

As regards the IAF, India around 2010-11will have around

175 MKI's (due to the recent order of 50 more from Russia directly. The entire program of 280 MKI's will be finished by 2014-15. Additionally, the MLU program would also have begun.)

60 Mig 29 upgraded to SMT (Mig 33 standards)

51 Mirage 2000 (upgraded to 5 standard)

U forgot the 100 Mig 27's and 140 Jaguars and 125 Mig 21 Bisons, forget about the LCA and the MRCA which will only start deliveries by 2012.

That makes it PAF-215 vs IAF 640, though i suspect PAF will still retain its much older Mirage and F7's until newer aircraft arrive.

Also, the Air force will never hesitate to use its full force, even fighters from its eastern bases in the event of a war, unless China declares war as well, whose stand on this issue was demonstrated in the 1965/71 wars.

Please feel free to disagree and let me know if my numbers are off.

plus F-35 & RAPPTOR!
& EVERYTHING in the world of MILITRY AVIATION, right?
our deals are comming forward step by step, when your M,RCA thing will be in the skies, kindly give us a date.
thanks

 

[BATMAN]

At this moment looking at the indian build up on forward lines/bases and present fleet of PAF, i would favor to excercise the option of remaining 18 a/c.
J10 is not comming till 2014, this allow sufficient time for its maturity by this time we should procure F-16.

 

[DaRk WaVe]

@ raveolution

175 MKI

Correct me If i m wrong, the deal about Up gradation of M2k to 5 standard is not finalized, French are demanding too much

as for MMRCA, I m hearing about this since like 2004 or 05, sorry to say but its more ranting than anything practical...

as for MiG-29 they will be upgraded to level of MiG-35 not MiG-33 I found this
IAF plans to Induct upgraded MiG-29 hit by Russian delay
IAF plans to Induct upgraded MiG-29 hit by Russian delay

Lets see how it goes for MiG-29

I hope I will see LCA inducted in my Life time

BTW i really need to know how there will be 280 MKI end by 2014-15...

 

[PAFAce]

For those interested in a brief news report from the US on PAF F-16s being rolled out.

Yahoo!

Thanks for the link, blain. By the way, once again, lack of research and inaccurate information was clearly visible. Another reason we need a joint effort to call these people out every time they get something wrong, especially related to Pakistan.

1. "Pakistani officials received the first of 54 F-16s it purchased from Lockheed Martin".
We all know the new order is for 18 F-16 Block 52s. Including the 18 new ones and the 2 undergoing MLU in the US, we will have 63 F-16s in our inventory (52 A/B + 2 MLU + 18 C/D - 9 attritional). Overall, the next F-16 that arrives in Pakistan will be our 53rd (could be either a C/D or an MLU, most likely a C/D). What she obviously wanted to convey was that Pakistan has, till date, purchased 54 F-16s from the US, and Pakistani officials received the first of 18 new type F-16s ordered in 2005/2006.

2. "Congress blocked sale of F-16s to Pakistan 20 years ago, because of concerns over Pakistan's loyalty to the US".
I thought it was because of our nuclear program. I didn't realize we had to be "loyal" to the US. So had we remained loyal, our nuclear program would not have hindered the sale? Is this a confession?

 

[Kompromat]

@ raveolution

175 MKI

Correct me If i m wrong, the deal about Up gradation of M2k to 5 standard is not finalized, French are demanding too much

as for MMRCA, I m hearing about this since like 2004 or 05, sorry to say but its more ranting than anything practical...

as for MiG-29 they will be upgraded to level of MiG-35 not MiG-33 I found this
IAF plans to Induct upgraded MiG-29 hit by Russian delay
IAF plans to Induct upgraded MiG-29 hit by Russian delay

Lets see how it goes for MiG-29

I hope I will see LCA inducted in my Life time

BTW i really need to know how there will be 280 MKI end by 2014-15...

According to zee news , by 2020 IAF would have a fleet of MKI's Upgraded Migs , FGFA , HAL Tejas ( exported in a number of 1200)
MRCA , 450 ICBMS , and a space borne aircraft carrier with Su 35's on it.

And a huge amount of Khiyali pulao

 

[blain2]

Mzubair bro we've had these discussions so many time... LOL..

PAF in 2010/11 will be:

28 JF17 (8 currently plus 20 more next year, thats the rate of production mentioned by the ACM in his speech... link is somewhere on this forum, which is in itself pretty high.)

55 F16's but not all upgraded. Only the first batch has started upgradation and this programme will end by 2012-13.

Absolutely no J10's. The J10'B' is still under development and the Pakistani FC 20 will be ready only by 2014-15 at best. This has already been discussed in the J10 thread.

Mirage Rose and F7 numbers are okay.

As regards the IAF, India around 2010-11will have around

175 MKI's (due to the recent order of 50 more from Russia directly. The entire program of 280 MKI's will be finished by 2014-15. Additionally, the MLU program would also have begun.)

60 Mig 29 upgraded to SMT (Mig 33 standards)

51 Mirage 2000 (upgraded to 5 standard)

U forgot the 100 Mig 27's and 140 Jaguars and 125 Mig 21 Bisons, forget about the LCA and the MRCA which will only start deliveries by 2012.

That makes it PAF-215 vs IAF 640, though i suspect PAF will still retain its much older Mirage and F7's until newer aircraft arrive.

Also, the Air force will never hesitate to use its full force, even fighters from its eastern bases in the event of a war, unless China declares war as well, whose stand on this issue was demonstrated in the 1965/71 wars.

Please feel free to disagree and let me know if my numbers are off.

Odds are no different than they have been in the past, and neither is the intent any different on the part of the IAF. PAF planning takes these things into account.

I tend to stay away from putting up future orbats because they are unrealistic, do not take into account delays, problems with induction etc. etc.

 

[blain2]

Thanks for the link, blain. By the way, once again, lack of research and inaccurate information was clearly visible. Another reason we need a joint effort to call these people out every time they get something wrong, especially related to Pakistan.

1. "Pakistani officials received the first of 54 F-16s it purchased from Lockheed Martin".
We all know the new order is for 18 F-16 Block 52s. Including the 18 new ones and the 2 undergoing MLU in the US, we will have 63 F-16s in our inventory (52 A/B + 2 MLU + 18 C/D - 9 attritional). Overall, the next F-16 that arrives in Pakistan will be our 53rd (could be either a C/D or an MLU, most likely a C/D). What she obviously wanted to convey was that Pakistan has, till date, purchased 54 F-16s from the US, and Pakistani officials received the first of 18 new type F-16s ordered in 2005/2006.

2. "Congress blocked sale of F-16s to Pakistan 20 years ago, because of concerns over Pakistan's loyalty to the US".
I thought it was because of our nuclear program. I didn't realize we had to be "loyal" to the US. So had we remained loyal, our nuclear program would not have hindered the sale? Is this a confession?

Its a local news channel. I just posted the link because it had the video of the aircraft and also some comments from CAS. The comments of the anchors were pretty insignificant and incorrect as you rightly point out.

 

[sonicboom]

Its a local news channel. I just posted the link because it had the video of the aircraft and also some comments from CAS. The comments of the anchors were pretty insignificant and incorrect as you rightly point out.

That's correct. Channle 11 is a local channel and I have already contacted them about this Inaccuracy.

 

[MZUBAIR]

Brother can you quote something where you can prove that China's technology cannot be relied. They have one of the best sophisticated planes.

I didnt say abt Chinees quality.......its one of the best


F-7PG, J-10B, JF-17 are state of arts.

Histiry showed that Chineese J6 (designed on Mig 19 frame ) porved batter then Mig 19.

i said we shld also consider western techs to keep variety in our defence fleet. For that we must have develop strong relations with west.

 

[blain2]

SERIOUSLY FINALLY SOMEONE WITH A SENSE OF THINGS!!! our rivals gets offered BLK 70s and they get god knows ToT as well and you name it!!! while we are just happy getting some BLK 52s....i dunno what the fuss is about...

i guess US has realized make pakistan feel so starved that even if we just throw a bone to them they get happy!!!

Ice,

Every little bit helps. Our rival is offered Blk70 on paper! We have blk-52 on hand. A very big difference. Americans can promise the Indians Starship Enterprise (from the famous Startrek) if they'd like to, however what is blk70? Nobody knows. The cost of blk-60 is as such that an order in the tune of 125-200 aircraft would make it pretty cost-prohibitive for the Indians. So the blk-70 is not necessarily the most advanced. If anything, it will be customized to Indian requirements and by the time that buy it and induct it, Pakistan would be looking at something beyond the F-16s.

The 18 blk-52s inducted have the AIDEWS ECM and EW suite on it which is the latest ECM suite available in the US. That is a significant capability given that even older PAF F-16s can conduct pretty serious jamming during operations. The Blk52s afford much greater endurance and the ability to use these aircraft for air interdiction, precision attack, maritime interdiction and electronic warfare in support of strike packages. All these advantages are not to be taken lightly. If employed effectively with the rest of the aircraft in service, these aircraft can do a lot to deny superiority to the other side.

Lastly, blk-52s are in addition to a lot of other upgradation and inductions. We have JF-17s coming off the production line, we are slated to take possession of the Erieye and then FC-20s. Each aircraft has a place in the PAF and as such the abilities of the F-16 blk52 cannot be taken lightly.

This purchase is one of equals. We paid and they delivered. Lets appreciate it instead of being constantly burdened by the past.

I'd rather have a larger number of bllk-52 F-16s than MKIs. F-16 is a better MR platform than most others on the market.

 

[PAFAce]

Its a local news channel. I just posted the link because it had the video of the aircraft and also some comments from CAS. The comments of the anchors were pretty insignificant and incorrect as you rightly point out.

That's correct. Channle 11 is a local channel and I have already contacted them about this Inaccuracy.

I believe CBS is not just a local news channel. But I could be wrong. We get CBS here in Canada, it's international television.

In any case, I was just trying to be a smart aleck. Forgive me.

 

[blain2]

It could even be CNN. Their anchors and those who do research for reports are no specialists in defence matters. They are sort of similar to the Pakistani reporters. Rarely will you find someone intricately aware of the F-16 saga and Pakistan in the media. I say, just enjoy the low quality video in it and call it day.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

well done congratulations PAF! and yep. RIP MKI