What's new

Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2

Just an hypothetical scenario:

If we had relations with US same as we had with China then we could have this XL design (pic below) which had 40% more load / range capacity, evolved with vista configuration giving it more smooth and stealthy shaping also with 5th gen plane avionics. It would have given us single engine fighter which could have handled all non stealth threat from our enemy.

View attachment 12335

General Dynamics F-16 VISTA - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
.
General Dynamics F-16XL - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

the above system would have created near to parity with IAF in terms of tech.

DESIGN FOR AIR COMBAT
True supercruiser concept
Experience has shown that even when a combat encounter occurs at supersonic speed, the {59} reduction in specific excess power as a result of manoeuvring causes a rapid slowing to subsonic speed if the engagement is pursued. NASA research during the 1970s on wing planforms and sections for a second-generation supersonic transport appeared to show how to maintain both speed and manoeuvrability. It was to this end that in the late 1970s the USAF launched the Supersonic Cruise and Manoeuvring Programme (SCAMP). As part of this effort General Dynamics and NASA investigated over 150 different configurations in the course of 3,600hr of wind-tunnel testing before selecting the cranked-arrow (or compound-sweep delta) planform.


fig046.gif

Fig 46 General Dynamics F-16 design evolution.


Then, in mid-1980, the USAF defined a more immediate requirement for an improved ground attack aircraft to succeed the F-4 and F-111. General Dynamics shifted its sights to this goal and changed certain details of its cranked-arrow wing to meet the new requirement. The changes affected the camber, twist and trailing-edge reflex, optimising the wing for supersonic speed at low level. Remarkably, the new wing was not part of a completely new aircraft but was married to the existing F-16. As can be seen in Fig 46, the transformation was profound. The new 60m2 wing was mated to the basic F-16 structure by means of two fuselage plugs, one 0.91 m long and inserted ahead of the undercarriage, and a 0.67 m section aft. To provide for ground clearance on rotation the longer rear fuselage was angled up by 3° and the ventral fins deleted. The upsweep puts the thrust line below the CG, helping to improve rotation on takeoff. This, together with the very advanced wing, allowed the F-16XL (subsequently known as the F-16E) to be rotated at speeds down to 195km/hr, leading to a field-length requirement only two-thirds that of the F-16A. Flight testing of the F-16E showed it to have a lift/drag ratio between 10 and 45% better than that of the basic F-16A, and it could roll and pitch faster in any configuration. It could also pull an AFCS-limited 9g over twice the Mach-number range. While the F-16E offers no L/D improvement in subsonic manoeuvres, it does retain the subsonic cruise efficiency of the F-16 planform. Where it scores is in supersonic cruise performance: at Mach 2.2 its L/D is over 9. This is due to the improved fineness ratio arising from the

{60}

p060.jpg

The General Dynamics F-16E's cranked-arrow wing was developed over 3,600hr of wind tunnel testing in the late 1970s. The high degree of sweep on the inboard leading edge means that flaps were fitted only outboard of the kink. The absence of a forward cockpit canopy frame is unique to the F-16 (General Dynamics)


increased fuselage length and even better wing/body blending. Even though the wing area is more than double that of the standard F-16, the skin friction drag is only 22% more, due partly to the deletion of the horizontal tail.

The cranked-arrow planform of the F-16E comprises a sharply swept (70°) leading-edge inboard section lying within the shock cone of the nose and, at 63% semi-span, a 50° outboard section of thin profile and sharp leading edge. This is designed to obtain the low wave drag associated with highly swept or thin wings without the aerodynamic penalties of sweep or structural problems of thin sections. However, the F-16E takes the delta planform {61} much further in that the experience gained with the leading-edge strakes of the basin F-16 enabled General Dynamics to maximise the vortex-lift benefit. The two swept panels of the cranked-arrow planform produce vortex systems which mutually interfere. At low angles of attack the leading-edge vortex from the inboard wing passes over the root chord of the outboard wing panel. In addition, vortex lift is available at the tip as a result of the action of the outboard leading-edge vortex. At high AOA the single primary vortex system acts over the whole of the outer panel. Thus augmented vortex lift occurs at supersonic speed, while at lower speeds the benefits of the primary vortex counter the high induced drag which plagued earlier delta planforms.


fig047.gif

Fig 47 F-16E flying qualities compared with those of the F-16A. Lateral/directional stability is improved; external loads do not adversely affect flying qualities: there are no limitations due to buffet, wing rock, nose slice, deep-stall trim points, or spin tendency; there are no limits on angle of attack, minimum speed and bank angle; and the full range of manoeuvres can be performed while carrying the maximum load of air-to-ground stores.13


The improvements in stability and control with and without stores were such that no limitations due to buffet, wing rock or nose slice, nor spin tendency were encountered during the flight test programme. Angle-of-attack excursions resulted when the airspeed dropped to zero but the aircraft always recovered without any pilot input. 360° rolls at maximum g/maximum AOA similarly failed to cause any departure from controlled flight (Fig 47).

The major difference between the application of vortex flow to transonic fighters (e.g. F-16, F-18) and to the supercruise fighter (e.g. F-16E) is the extent of vortex lift available. The supercruise fighter, having more of the wing highly swept, develops more of this lift. Only a small fraction of the increased lift comes from the potential (or attached-flow) lift; the rest is due to the vortex lift acting over the increased wing area. This extra lift increases instantaneous turn rate, now regarded as more important than sustained turn rate, which largely governed the original F-16 design. Newer gunsights and missiles like the AIM-9L Sidewinder reduce the need to hold the target in the sight for weapon aiming. General Dynamics relinquished a small amount of sustained manoeuvrability in order to double the 9g envelope and move it into the high supersonic regime.

It should not however be forgotten that the F-16E was initially developed for ground attack. In this respect the new wing increased internal fuel capacity by 82%, which eliminated for most missions the weight and drag of external tanks. This gave it a 45% increase in combat radius with twice the weapon load of the F-16A and a more than 120% increase with the same weapon load. The aircraft is equipped with 17 store stations with 29 hard-points. In the event the F-15E, a development of the two-seat F-15C was chosen as the dual-role fighter for the USAF, though it remains possible that development of the F-16E will continue.
 
.
Were PAF options on the ECM gear without DRFM:

ALQ-211 AIDEW , AN/ALQ-184 , AN/ALQ-131, or AN/ALQ-187 , AN/ALQ-178 ?
Any specs comparison among these five?
Polish f16s have ITT Industries AN/ALQ-211 derived AN/ALQ-173(V) {also called ALQ-211 (V) 4} Advanced Integrated Defense Electronics Warfare System (AIDEWS).
Electronic Warfare. | Pakistan Defence
 
Last edited:
. . .
Apparently it was allowed back in. There was a news item or interview that stated the DRFM being allowed in.


Then it must be of degraded form. Limited operating spectrum.

In 2006, there was a great furor in senate and congress by Democrates (India lobbying hard), an audio clip of such one public senate hearing disclosed secretary of state assuring them sensitive DFRM would not be transferd

Country Date Transmission No.
Pakistan .. 6/28/2006 .. 06-09

DESCRIPTION:
36 F-16C/D Block 50/52 aircraft with either the F100-PW-229 or F110-GE-129 Increased Performance Engines (IPEs) and APG-68(V)9 radars; 7 spare F100-PW-229 IPE or F110-GE-129 IPE engines; 7 spare APG-68(V)9 radar sets; 36 Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems; 36
AN/ARC-238 SINCGARS radios with HAVE QUICK I/II; 36 Conformal Fuel Tanks (pairs); 36
Link-16 Multifunctional Information Distribution System-Low Volume Terminals; 36 Global Positioning Systems (GPS) and Embedded GPS/Inertial Navigation Systems; 36 APX-113 Advanced Identification Friend or Foe Systems; 36 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suites without Digital Radio Frequency Memory (DRFM) or AN/ALQ-184 Electronic Counter Measures pod without DRFM or AN/ALQ-131 Electronic Counter Measures pod without DRFM or AN/ALQ-187 Advanced Self-Protection Integrated Suites without DRFM; or Pakistan AN/ALQ-178 Self-Protection Electronic Warfare Suites without DRFM and 1 Unit Level Trainer;

Pakistan 6/28/2006 06-10

DESCRIPTION
60 F-16A/B Mid-Life Update (MLU) modification and Falcon Star Structural Service Life Enhancement kits consisting of: APG-68(V)9 with Synthetic Aperture Radar or APG-66(V)2 radar; Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems; AN/APX-113 Advanced Identification Friend or Foe Systems; AN/ALE-47 Advanced Countermeasures Dispenser Systems; Have Quick I/II Radios; Link-16 Multifunctional Information Distribution System-Low Volume Terminals; SNIPER (formerly known as AN/AAQ-33 PANTERA) targeting pod capability; Reconnaissance pod capability; Advanced Air Combat Maneuvering Instrumentation Units; MDE included in the MLU modification and structural upgrade kits 21 ALQ-131 Block II Electronic Countermeasures Pods without the Digital Radio Frequency Memory (DRFM) or ALQ-184 Electronic Countermeasures Pods without DRFM; 60 ALQ-213 Electronic Warfare Management Systems; 1 Unit Level Trainer; and 10 APG-68(V)9 spare radar sets. Also included are radars, modems, receivers, installation, avionics, spare and repair parts, support equipment, CONUS-personnel training and training equipment, technical assistance, publications and technical documentation, system drawings, U.S. Government and contractor engineering, and other related logistics elements necessary for full program support.

Foreign Military Sales $1.3 billion

Pakistan 6/28/2006 06-11
 
Last edited:
.
Then it must be of degraded form. Limited operating spectrum.

In 2006, there was a great furor in senate and congress by Democrates (India lobbying hard), an audio clip of such one public senate hearing disclosed secretary of state assuring them sensitive DFRM would not be transferd


initially blocked, later supplied with functional DFRM module as per export specifications due to a request by PAF.
 
.
initially blocked, later supplied with functional DFRM module as per export specifications due to a request by PAF.

It's hard to believe, they supplied it despite congress ban. No congress furor on flaunting it's authority is bemusing
 
.
It's hard to believe, they supplied it despite congress ban. No congress furor on flaunting it's authority is bemusing
I think this is the same case which makes us wonder if PAF should spend a single penny on any more US equipment. I mean, like WTF.

Better to invest in JF-17 and J-10. At least you have a peace of mind that you can make it as lethal as you want it.
 
.
It's hard to believe, they supplied it despite congress ban. No congress furor on flaunting it's authority is bemusing

And it makes no sense to go for 211 series without DRFM in the first place, without it, its as good as ALQ-131 with few software tweaks here and there. Also, i shared a source which confirmed that KG-300G ew pod has DRFM so its not a new thing for PAF.

I think this is the same case which makes us wonder if PAF should spend a single penny on any more US equipment. I mean, like WTF.

Better to invest in JF-17 and J-10. At least you have a peace of mind that you can make it as lethal as you want it.

i second your thoughts :)
 
. . .
Aviation Industry News
Production of the F-16 will likely continue through 2020
December 17, 2013 (by Lieven Dewitte) - Lockheed Martin has enough orders to keep its F-16 fighter jet production line humming through the third quarter of 2017. They are also pursuing additional orders and upgrades in the Middle East, South America and other markets that would keep the line running through 2020.



An unpainted F-16C leaves the production line at Lockheed's Fort Worth facilities. [Photo by Kenny Roberts]
Around that time, the cost of Lockheed's new F-35 stealth fighter will have dropped so far that it will make more sense for potential customers to procure F-35s rather than F-16s. Last Friday Lockheed Martin marked completion of its 100th F-35 fighter.

Lockheed has produced over 4,500 F-16s since the program began in 1975, making the F-16 the best-selling fighter jet in history. The jets are flown by 26 countries, including 15 that have placed follow-on orders, Bill McHenry, Lockheed's head of F-16 business development, said in in an interview with Reuters.

The United Arab Emirates is weighing new F-16 orders and possible upgrades, but failed to announce an order at the Dubai air show as some experts had expected.

Lockheed has dramatically scaled back production of the F-16 at its facility in Fort Worth, Texas, to about one plane a month now - from a peak production rate of 30 planes a month in June 1987, said spokesman Mark Johnson. At the moment, the company is completing work on the last one of 20 F-16s it built for Egypt. That jet and seven others are being stored at the Fort Worth plant after the United States announced it would withhold most military aid due to concerns about democracy and human rights.

It is also working on 12 F-16s for Oman, several of which are in varying states of completion at the slimmed-down F-16 production line in Building 8, also known as the "Falcon's Nest," plus a total of 36 jets ordered by Iraq. One of the 145 jets being upgraded for Taiwan is also in the factory, its nose cone already open for insertion of the new Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar. McHenry said Lockheed saw additional opportunities to upgrade existing F-16s to the new F-16V configuration, which includes the AESA radar, embedded global positioning, updated electronic warfare equipment and avionics systems.

He acknowledged that other companies, including Britain's BAE Systems, were trying to capture some of that upgrade work, but said Lockheed offered lower costs and greater economies of scale given the breadth of its existing work with the 26 countries that already operate the jet. The Pentagon last month approved a deal under which BAE will upgrade 134 older F-16 fighter jets for South Korea, a move that could pressure Lockheed to compete more aggressively in the hunt for upgrade deals.

Related articles:
 
.
any updates regarding the current MLU status? how many planes have we got. I hope the project have not stopped altogether after the government change.
 
. .
any updates regarding the current MLU status? how many planes have we got. I hope the project have not stopped altogether after the government change.

During the Turkish airshow, when a PAF f-16 was performing, the comentator mentioned that half of the fleet has been upgraded, and that exact f-16 just went through the MLU.
The video is on youtube and other video hosting sites.
 
.

Pakistan Defence Latest Posts

Pakistan Affairs Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom