Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2

[MastanKhan]

is that "bubbly" enough for you?

Hi,

No it is not----.

Bubble canopy was the need of a different time. The F16 bubble canopy---I don't think any nation has the capability to build one ecxept for the italians and the u s---.

One piece bubble canopy as seen on the F16 is not needed anymore---you don't need the visuals on the target or you don't need the actual eye to see the surroundings----your ELECTRONIC EYES are doing that for you.

If you can install fail safe video devices around the air craft---you don' need a glass canopy---you can have a steel cockpit----just like the next generation of u s submarines will have the actual visual of the surroundings displayed on the screens.

 

[MastanKhan]

is that "bubbly" enough for you?

Hi,

Let us put it this way----the technology used to build this 3 piece bubble technology is at par with like building a piston engine Cessna aircraft.

Now compare it to the one piece bubble canopy of the F 16---it is like building a 747.

 

[razgriz19]

Hi,

Let us put it this way----the technology used to build this 3 piece bubble technology is at par with like building a piston engine Cessna aircraft.

Now compare it to the one piece bubble canopy of the F 16---it is like building a 747.

if its all about a single piece canopy then here you go
J-20 has a single piece canopy.

 

[SQ8]

Hi,

No it is not----.

Bubble canopy was the need of a different time. The F16 bubble canopy---I don't think any nation has the capability to build one ecxept for the italians and the u s---.

Incorrect again. Any nation with a sustainable polycarbonate industry can manufacture a bubble canopy that meets or exceeds the mil-std used on the F-16. The J-20 canopy did not come out of thin air. GKN technologies in the UK offers F-22 canopies as well.

The reason many aircraft do not use the frameless design is because they cannot have inconsistencies in thickness(traditional framed canopies are thicker in the front section to protect against bird strikes and thinner in the rear to save weight) to ensure canopy strength for bird strike. However this increases weight which is why F-16 and F-22 are one of the heaviest out there. Unlike other framed bubble canopies where in case of failure to jettison the canopy the seat can punch through the rear of the bubble, the F-16 canopy as a small charge that is used to shatter the canopy before ejection(previously rockets were used to seperate the canopy). And finally, frameless transparencies are difficult and expensive to manufacture. They require a high degree of accuracy in manufacturing process.

 

[MastanKhan]

Incorrect again. Any nation with a sustainable polycarbonate industry can manufacture a bubble canopy that meets or exceeds the mil-std used on the F-16. The J-20 canopy did not come out of thin air. GKN technologies in the UK offers F-22 canopies as well.


And finally, frameless transparencies are difficult and expensive to manufacture. They require a high degree of accuracy in manufacturing process.

Hi,

Bubble canopies are being manufactured---but not with the similar similarities in SIZE to the F16's in question.

The F22 canopy is not the same as that of the F16's---. When one crosses a CERTAIN THRESHOLD OF DESIGN the job gets tougher by a multiplier effect which is NOT proprtionate to the difficulty in creating the original design but may exceed a thousand folds for the extra inch or those extra 5 degrees of curvature---and that is the case oin comparison with the F16's bubble canopy and the F22 bubble canopy.

The single piece F16 bubble canopy is a marvel of engineering design and technology.

When I say other nations cannot build the F16 canopy---it means that they cannot build a flawless functional unit---. As grows the curvature and the size of the canopy---so does the distortion in visibility through the glass---.

What it comes down to is---removing the distortions in visibility thru the glass---other than that---you can build it in that sense if you are not considering distortions---.

 

[Indischer]

Hi,

No it is not----.

Bubble canopy was the need of a different time. The F16 bubble canopy---I don't think any nation has the capability to build one ecxept for the italians and the u s---.

One piece bubble canopy as seen on the F16 is not needed anymore---you don't need the visuals on the target or you don't need the actual eye to see the surroundings----your ELECTRONIC EYES are doing that for you.

If you can install fail safe video devices around the air craft---you don' need a glass cockpit---you can have a steel cockpit----just like the next generation of u s submarines will have the actual visual of the surroundings displayed on the screens.

Dafuq did I read?

You do realize that 'Glass cockpit' refers to a cockpit where electronic/digital displays have replaced the analog displays and devices, right? What's a 'Steel Cockpit' anyway??

 

[MastanKhan]

Dafuq did I read?

You do realize that 'Glass cockpit' refers to a cockpit where electronic/digital displays have replaced the analog displays and devices, right? What's a 'Steel Cockpit' anyway??

Hi,

Yes I do---don't make a mountain of a mole hill---read it as glass canopy.

Incorrect again. Any nation with a sustainable polycarbonate industry can manufacture a bubble canopy that meets or exceeds the mil-std used on the F-16. The J-20 canopy did not come out of thin air. GKN technologies in the UK offers F-22 canopies as well.


Hi,

Can make and make are two different things----. India also thought that they could make a fighter jet engine---they also thought that they could make a tank engine as well and they had the blue prints and everything else needed----.

 

[Indischer]

Hi,

Yes I do---don't make a mountain of a mole hill---read it as glass canopy.

You still haven't told me what a steel cockpit is...JK

 

[MilSpec]

Bubble glass canopies need female mold, uni-axial clear glass fiber/tranperent polycarbonate substrate, Vacuum assisted resin transfer molding system or pressurized transfer molding system, and curing oven. that's about it...It's not some wondrous achievement...Even P51 sort of had a bubble canopy....

 

[MastanKhan]

You still haven't told me what a steel cockpit is...JK[/q


If the canopy was all steel----it was just an example----the outside sensors would display all the needed information on the screen---. So---what is the need of the bubble canopy---not much. Just for the pilot so that he may not get claustrophobic. Otherwise all the needed info is displayed on the screen---unless the plane gets shot up bad and screens don't display anything.

Next gen drone fighter interceptor aircraft.

Bubble glass canopies need female mold, uni-axial clear glass fiber/tranperent polycarbonate substrate, Vacuum assisted resin transfer molding system or pressurized transfer molding system, and curing oven. that's about it...It's not some wondrous achievement...Even P51 sort of had a bubble canopy....

Hi,

A sort of a bubble canopy for a P51 and the F 16 bubble canopy are two different things.

Sandy---I am not a rude person---but allow me to say---'just because you can talk---does not mean that----you should' !!!!!!

Maybe---you should contact DRDO and find out what happened with the tank engine they were designing or the aircraft engine---. It was simple science wasn't it---you had all the blueprints and the the metals as welll---not counting all the phd's and an open checkbook----so what happened.

 

[MilSpec]

Hi,

A sort of a bubble canopy for a P51 and the F 16 bubble canopy are two different things.

Sandy---I am not a rude person---but allow me to say---'just because you can talk---does not mean that----you should' !!!!!!

Maybe---you should contact DRDO and find out what happened with the tank engine they were designing or the aircraft engine---. It was simple science wasn't it---you had all the blueprints and the the metals as welll---not counting all the phd's and an open checkbook----so what happened.

As a matter of fact f16 bubble canopies and p51 canopies from manufacturing perspective albiet dimensional difference are not that different

I am not sure why such retort, All I pointed out was that bubble canopies are not some wondrous achievement, it is relatively simple to manufacture, and given access to clear glass fibers everywhere in todays world, I doubt there is anyone who cannot make one....As a matter of fact PAC kamra's Canopy division has all the tooling needed to make a bubble canopy if needed.

Engines on the other hand are different game all together. i am sure you know that better than anyone....

 

[dbc]

As a matter of fact f16 bubble canopies and p51 canopies from manufacturing perspective albiet dimensional difference are not that different

I am not sure why such retort, All I pointed out was that bubble canopies are not some wondrous achievement, it is relatively simple to manufacture, and given access to clear glass fibers everywhere in todays world, I doubt there is anyone who cannot make one....As a matter of fact PAC kamra's Canopy division has all the tooling needed to make a bubble canopy if needed.

Engines on the other hand are different game all together. i am sure you know that better than anyone....

The challenge was to make a bubble canopy of uniform thickness for visibility and uniform impact resistance. A canopy that offered sufficient protection against bird strikes and with the ability to withstand impact even at low altitude supersonic flight. At low altitude supersonic flight parasitic drag causes heating of the surface of the canopy diminishing its impact resistance. The design goal was to use materials and forming process that provided the pilot sufficient protection in all likely scenarios.

The principle issue was achieving uniform thickness since thermoplastic forming process results in non uniform thinning in the region that is more strained during the forming process.

You are right anyone can make a bubble canopy even PAC Kamra but it may not be as easy to achieve the same results.

 

[Basel]

Just an hypothetical scenario:

If we had relations with US same as we had with China then we could have this XL design (pic below) which had 40% more load / range capacity, evolved with vista configuration giving it more smooth and stealthy shaping also with 5th gen plane avionics. It would have given us single engine fighter which could have handled all non stealth threat from our enemy.

General Dynamics F-16 VISTA - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
.
General Dynamics F-16XL - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

the above system would have created near to parity with IAF in terms of tech.

 

[Munir]

Khan sahib,

It is obvious the Chinese do deliver. Not in all fields (yet :engine) but I can assure you, they can easily deliver bubble canopies. If you start saying that one bubble canopy is not the other then you are now showing that you are a truly US citizen. A nation that talks about justice, freedom, democracy yet it is nothing then a bankrupt (we do not have to go in detail about Emron, credit crises, huge debt), lying (well everything they come up with to go to war as a "coalition" or Obama about closing Guantanomo) and stealing (NSA) nation.

 

[nomi007]

Two PAF Bravo's, #90952 and #92452, who were embargoed and stored at AMARC, now flying again [USAF photo]