Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2

[Imran Khan]

I noticed the Tail vertical stabilizer (ruder) base of Block 50/52+ F-16s is wider and bigger. But noticed in some Block 50/52s pictures we do not see this feature. Is this specific to Block 50/52 Plus?

http://www.f-16.net/f-16_versions_article9.html

The Block 50/52 Plus is a version which has special provisions for the adverse weather delivery of the Boeing JDAM (Joint Direct Attack Munition). The update includes an add-on tail unit containing a synthetic aperture radar, providing guidance to 1,000lbs Mk.83, 2,000lbs Mk.84 and the 2,000lbs BLU-109 warhead.

Looking into V(9) version of the AN/APG-68 radar as it provides both improved air-to-air capabilities and air-to-ground capabilities.
We know that Block 50/52 Plus APG-68 v-9 includes added resolution in new Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR) mode, which allows autonomous delivery of precision, all-weather, standoff weapons.

Do the tail sensors and highlighted unit in the pictures - contains the add-ons to SAR?

Image below PAF F-16 Block 50/52+ (with wider bigger ruder base)

Below Image below F-16 Block 50/52, Note extrusion of the base unit of the vertical Stabilizer is not as prominent as pictures above.

its parachute dear for stop them early blocks have no parachutes thats why they are small .

 

[IceCold]

You can't add Chinese origin weapons to a modern day U.S origin aircraft. Neither you can jail break its avionics. If you add a non-configured weapon to an aircraft, a Malfunction message will appear on the MFD or avionics toolkit. Every component has a related module which manages its working. For.e.g Weapon management system manages the external weapon load working. It passes on the current status of each pylon to aircraft's mission computer.

You cant or you wont? there is a difference between the two sir?
On a side note Chinese weapons are known to have compatibility with western systems and the main reason is us because we always liked the kink between the two.
Correct me on this one but If am not wrong, we can integrate SD-10 on an F-16 provided we have the source codes for the same. Perhaps the turkish can help in this regard.

 

[Free Soul]

its parachute dear for stop them early blocks have no parachutes thats why they are small .

Sure – but I always thought all F-16 used to have break parachutes. Unless like Israel Air Force F-16 C which did not have break parachute.
I went though some details - Cheil Ha'avir Israel Defense Force/Air Force - IDF/AF
Externally, the Israeli F-16C differs from other F-16C's by having an extension to the base of its vertical stabilizer, similar to the Norwegian F-16s parachute brake compartment; however, no parachutes are used on IAF F-16s
Also on Israeli F-16 D 50/52, The back seat is reserved for the F-16s Weapon System Operator. Externally this fighter differs from other F-16D's by having a boxlike extension from the cockpit to the vertical stabilizer, referred to as a dorsal spine. Think it is not just a support beam as some of the Block 50/52 F-16s we (PAF) received did not have that Dorsal Spine.
The dorsal fairing was designed, mocked up, fabricated and installed during regular routine assembly while these aircraft were on the production line in Fort Worth. The dorsal spine is believed to accommodate Wild Weasel equipment (amongst others Elisra's SPS-3000 self-protection jammer) for Israeli F-16s, which detects emissions from enemy radar sites and pinpoints their locations, and specialized weapon delivery systems, such as 'smart bombs' guided using the back seat's side stick for control. Israeli Air force only confirms that it has various electronic systems (think they did not confirm Wild Weasel equipment).

Thus the following got me curious as to the reason behind some of the Block 50/52s having extended Vertical stabilizer base and some not.

http://www.f-16.net/f-16_versions_article9.html

The Block 50/52 Plus is a version which has special provisions for the adverse weather delivery of the Boeing JDAM (Joint Direct Attack Munition). The update includes an add-on tail unit containing a synthetic aperture radar, providing guidance to 1,000lbs Mk.83, 2,000lbs Mk.84 and the 2,000lbs BLU-109 warhead.

There are tons of F-16 block 50/52 pictures on this thread and all over the forum where some block 50/52s have this feature and some do not like Some F-16 Ds have a dorsal Spine and some do not.

Hence the questions

Is this specific to Block 50/52 Plus?
Do the tail sensors and highlighted unit in the pictures, could or they do contain the add-ons to SAR?

P.S. intrestingly while the F-16B is a two seat version of the F-16A used for pilot conversion, the Israeli F-16D is completely different from the F-16C where the back seat is reserved for the F-16s Weapon System Operator(WSO) - this is specially true for Israeli F-16 Ds with Dorsal spine.
Do PAF F-16 Ds (one with dorsal Spine) have the rear seat reserved for WSO too?

 

[Dazzler]

Yes, PAF blk 52s have WSO in the back seat, this aircraft fulfils training as a secondary function unlike the F-16B model which was primarily for training.

 

[Najam Khan]

I noticed the Tail vertical stabilizer (ruder) base of Block 50/52+ F-16s is wider and bigger. But noticed in some Block 50/52s pictures we do not see this feature. Is this specific to Block 50/52 Plus?

The PAF/HAF/PoAF operates similar Block52s. Their tail section has drogue chute+ECM housing unlike CCIP upgraded F-16s/non-drogue chute Block52s. The thick tail compartment also contains AN/ALR-56M RWR.

Greece and Pakistan operates different type of Block52s. HAF F-16s have ASPIS-II internal ECM where as PAF F-16s have Carrapace passive RWR system.

Some related links:

HAF F-16C block 30 #116 returning from a factory visit to install ECM equipment
http://www.f-16.net/gallery_item21926.html

Close-up of the Carrapace passive RWR system installed on Belgian AF F-16s. The system consists of 2 receivers, mounted in the parachute compartiment and under the intake.
http://www.f-16.net/gallery_item45617.html

Countermeasures

Current block 50 F-16 aircraft for the USA are equipped with the Lockheed Martin superheterodyne AN/ALR-56M radar warning receiver. The F-16 is also compatible with a range of jammers and electronic countermeasures equipment, including Northrop Grumman AN/ALQ-131, Raytheon AN/ALQ-184, Elisra SPS 3000 and Elta EL/L-8240, and the Northrop Grumman ALQ-165 self-protection suite.

Lockheed Martin ALE-40 and ALE-47 chaff and infrared flare dispenser systems are installed in an internal flush mount. ALE-40 is pilot-controlled but the ALE-47 installed in block 50 can be operated in fully, semi-automatic or manual mode.

F-16s for the Greek Air Force are being fitted with the Raytheon advanced self-protection integrated suite (ASPIS) II which includes Northrop Grumman ALR-93(V) threat warning system, Raytheon ALQ-187 jammer and BAE Systems ALE-47 chaff / flare dispenser.

F-16s for Chile and Pakistan are fitted with the ITT AN/ALQ-211 (V) 4 electronic warfare suite.
F-16 Fighting Falcon - Airforce Technology

AN/ALR-56M RWR

 

[Najam Khan]

You cant or you wont? there is a difference between the two sir?

In this case, both can't and won't have similar meaning.

" Can't " because of the limitations of the weapon interoperability.
" Won't " because we know that all the doors that have opened after decades will close again.

On a side note Chinese weapons are known to have compatibility with western systems and the main reason is us because we always liked the kink between the two.
Correct me on this one but If am not wrong, we can integrate SD-10 on an F-16 provided we have the source codes for the same. Perhaps the turkish can help in this regard.

Despite the fact that Turkey and Pakistan have brotherly relations, we Must understand that TAI is doing business with us...on behalf of L.M. Any similar illegal move will create problems for both sides. Once they violate the terms of agreement, things will change for them too.

Lastly, what is the worst case scenario of using SD-10s on F-16s? Perhaps loosing 2/3rd of AMRAAMs in few days of conflict? Poor missile/kill ratio of AMRAAMs? In all such cases, embarking a Chinese missile onto a western type will be both technical and strategic nightmare.

 

[Fieldmarshal]

provided we have the source codes for the same. Perhaps the turkish can help in this regard.

Wt if i told u that we just helped the Turks in this regard ; )

 

[IceCold]

Wt if i told u that we just helped the Turks in this regard ; )

Things like these should not be said out loud

 

[fatman17]

Yes, PAF blk 52s have WSO in the back seat, this aircraft fulfils training as a secondary function unlike the F-16B model which was primarily for training.

after the MLU, will the F-16B have a WSO?

 

[Windjammer]

 

[nomi007]

in future is there is any chance of more used f-16s from any other country especially from usa?

---------- Post added at 02:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:11 PM ----------

see this video
really interested

 

[Windjammer]

The latest edition of AFM, carries an interesting news item regarding the last delivered Block-52 F-16D.
"While the remainder of the new F-16C/D had been delivered some time ago, but 10801 had been retained by the manufacturer to complete testing of Pakistan-specific weapons and equipment".

Other than the standard package, what special weapons would Pakistan be deploying on the new birds. ?? !!

 

[Free Soul]

The latest edition of AFM, carries an interesting news item regarding the last delivered Block-52 F-16D.
"While the remainder of the new F-16C/D had been delivered some time ago, but 10801 had been retained by the manufacturer to complete testing of Pakistan-specific weapons and equipment".

Other than the standard package, what special weapons would Pakistan be deploying on the new birds. ?? !!

Cool good to know that there is some creditable news, pointing to F-16 D having some special treatment done to it.

A few posts above in #5179.

Right from the start it found it intriguing that amongst F-16 Block 50/52s you can see some obvious external differences.

Like Block 50/52 Ds that were delivered earlier to PAF didn’t have a Dorsal Spine, some F-16 Ds have a dorsal spine, i looked bit into that on my own just checking from various sources and found it very interesting that Israeli F-16 Ds with dorsal spine are a bit special (details in post above)

It left a cheeky smile on my face when I could confirm to myself that we have got ourselves F-16 Ds with a dorsal spine (how many of our F-16 Ds have dorsal spine, I don’t know, may be someone can shed some light on that).

P.S. Photo-shopped aircraft pictures just grind my gears. When some internet crusader puts Pakistan flag on the ruder of an aircraft misleading people. 1st of all it is a shoddy job. Plus a headache when it comes for an enthusiast to do a bit of research on available Photos and information laying around.

 

[Free Soul]

after the MLU, will the F-16B have a WSO?

In my opinion i think it would not be so. Think if it needs to be done then it would involve very extensive and expensive work to be carried out, cockpit revamp, rear seat controls and perhaps designing a new Dorsal spine for F-16 B MLUs to carry additional stuff for WSO.

But i do not know for sure.

I think even the block 50/52s Ds without Dorsal Sipne do not have WSO designated rear seat. I came to this conclusion based on info that - The dorsal fairing was designed, mocked up, fabricated and installed during regular routine assembly while F-16 Block 50/52s were on the production line in Fort Worth. The dorsal spine is believed to accommodate Wild Weasel equipment (amongst others Elisra's SPS-3000 self-protection jammer) for Israeli F-16s. Not all F-16 Ds have this feature.

Just my opinion

 

[Windjammer]

^^^^^^
AFAIK, all the "D" models have a dorsal spine, the confusion may arise, that during the course, some refurbished/MLU F-16Bs were also delivered which obviously don't have the same outlook.