Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2

[Mabs]

What upsets me no end is when my "skepticism" is attacked not with logical counter-argument, but by direct affronts to my patriotism, as if my opinion is somehow suspect just because I am in USA.

Other than that I do have a pretty thick skin

The problem arises when instead of discussing what I say, I am attacked for being who I am!

When you doubt everything Pakistani from the Thar Coal project to F-16's actual performance to JF-17's usefulness, then yes it will raise some eyebrows and people will start to questions your intentions and I don't blame them for it. There is a stark difference between constructive criticism and pointless mud slinging and you come across as a person who just does not want to believe in the idea of a progressive Pakistan or anything related to it.

 

[VCheng]

When you doubt everything Pakistani from Thar Coal project to F-16's actual performance to JF-17's usefulness, then yes it will raise some eyebrows and people will start to questions your intentions and I don't blame them for it. There is a stark difference between constructive criticism and pointless mud slinging and you come across as a person who just does not want to believe in the idea of a progressive Pakistan or anything related to it.

Okay, fair enough, but can you present any tangible results in response to the points that I raise?

The Thar Coal project is a failure so far. Fact.
The Pakistani F-16s are carefully controlled by multiple mechanisms. Fact.
The JF-17s are limited in their usefulness in their present state of development. Fact.

I believe in facts. Hope and prayer are fine, but results speak the loudest for all the world to see.

Now can we please get back to the topic of this thread?

Edit: I don't wear my patriotic credentials on my sleeve, but trust me, they are impeccable.

 

[SQ8]

Okay, fair enough, but can you present any tangible results in response to the points that I raise?

The Thar Coal project is a failure so far. Fact.
The Pakistani F-16s are carefully controlled by multiple mechanisms. Fact.
The JF-17s are limited in their usefulness in their present state of development. Fact.

I believe in facts. Hope and prayer are fine, but results speak the loudest for all the world to see.

Now can we please get back to the topic of this thread?

How?, it is still in the initial phase..

How again?. What exact targets that were set for it, did it not meet?
What concrete proof or logic other than speculation can you present in this regard?

 

[VCheng]

How?, it is still in the initial phase..

How again?. What exact targets that were set for it, did it not meet?
What concrete proof or logic other than speculation can you present in this regard?

... which is why I clearly say "..... in its present state of development." Once developed further to realize its potential, it will be a very useful platform, and I have consistently said that too. I also have expressed hope that the real potential to indigenize more and more aspects of design and manufacturing of great portions of the airframe and later engines, plus experience in integrating avionics is the real benefit of the program.

I stand by that assessment given the present situation.

 

[SQ8]

... which is why I clearly say "..... in its present state of development." Once developed further to realize its potential, it will be a very useful platform, and I have consistently said that too. I also have expressed hope that the real potential to indigenize more and more aspects of design and manufacturing of great portions of the airframe and later engines, plus experience in integrating avionics is the real benefit of the program.

I stand by that assessment given the present situation.

Again mon ami... I consider its present state of development much more satisfactory(perhaps more so than others).
In any case, that is a debate for another thread. Currently though, there are F-16 sitting around with shackles on our tarmacs.

 

[VCheng]

Again mon ami... I consider its present state of development much more satisfactory(perhaps more so than others).
In any case, that is a debate for another thread. Currently though, there are F-16 sitting around with shackles on our tarmacs.

Actually, so do I (please don't be surprised at that.)

(Edit: I take it you object to the phrase "limited in their usefulness", but that is rooted in the performance of the platform compared to others in its class and theater.)

The F-16 "shackles" are quite another issue to workaround.

 

[razgriz19]

i agree with Vcheng that current thunders aren't exactly as useful as, atleast i expected...
we would still have to wait for a couple of years to see BVR missiles and LGBs on it.

 

[VCheng]

i agree with Vcheng that current thunders aren't exactly as useful as, atleast i expected...
we would still have to wait for a couple of years to see BVR missiles and LGBs on it.

Thank you, and I am sure that those developments will happen soon enough.

 

[Imran Khan]

Thank you, and I am sure that those developments will happen soon enough.

i am sure BVRs already done and LGBs ready to be .

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

i agree with Vcheng that current thunders aren't exactly as useful as, atleast i expected...
we would still have to wait for a couple of years to see BVR missiles and LGBs on it.

the SD-10?

 

[VCheng]

i am sure BVRs already done and LGBs ready to be .

There will be steady development and integration with this aircraft, I am sure.

 

[fatman17]

i agree with Vcheng that current thunders aren't exactly as useful as, atleast i expected...
we would still have to wait for a couple of years to see BVR missiles and LGBs on it.

and your info is based on what?

 

[fatman17]

$5.1B Proposed in Sales, Upgrades, Weapons for Pakistan’s F-16s

Jul 25, 2011

On June 28/06, the US DSCA notified Congress via a series of releases of its intention to provide Pakistan with a $5.1 billion Foreign Military Sales package to upgrade the F-16s that serve as the PAF’s top of the line fighters. Some of these items had been put on hold following the October 2005 earthquake in Pakistan & Kashmir, but the request for 36 new F-16 Block 50/52s is now going ahead, along with new weapons, engine modifications, and upgrade kits for Pakistan’s older F-16 A/Bs. The buy went through, and was accompanied by the supply of 26 older F-16s from USAF surplus stocks.

These items are detailed below, along with controversies the proposed sales have created, and some of the conditions attached to the sale by the US government…

Item 1: 36 New F-16 Block 50/52s – $3 billion
Item 2: Weapons for the New F-16s – $650 Million
Item 3: F-16A/B Mid-Life Update Modification Kits – $1.3 billion
Item 4: F-16A/B Engine Modifications & UP/STAR – $151 Million
Deal Updates and Progress [updated]
Potential Controversies (July 5, 2006)

 

[epinephrine]

so its a nice deal going on.if we get around 80 advanced n upgraded f-16s along with 200-250 planned jf-17s n j 10s paf will be a good potent force

 

[Shahzad Sultan]

Sir, Fatman 17 !

New F-16 deal including weapons makes USD 3.650 billion, which means USD USD 101.389 million is per peice cost ? kindly confirm ?