Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2

[muse]

Why more F16's ? Soon the F35 will replace F16 in the inventories of Western Air Forces and these will need a home -- better to develop industrial expertise that allows us to do to the kinds of refurbishment we may wish to do on these aircraft should we purchase them.

A continuing problem with any US aircraft will be gauranteed supply, spares and the economics of operating US equipment - I'm all for good relations with US -- but the greater the involvement of the US in the kind of force the PAF becomes, the less our autonomy of action with regard to what we think we want/need and how and when/where to use these assets.

I would like to remind readers of US/Pak relations - they have never had a solid basis, and they don't have one now - it's very sad and distressing to see this blind rush to include the US in Pakistani power, it's a terrible, terrible mistake.

Some have argued that it makes sense given an India that is going huff and puff our house down - now I'm not suggesting that the Indian don't have that capablity or that some sections of opinion are not desperately seeking just that -- but between the US and India which is a greater net negative for Pakistan in the near and medium future? I would argue without a doubt, it's the US - The Indian may want to make mischief but he knows that everything built in the last 25 years and the future will disappear overnight if they engage in hostilities - The US on the other hand will continue to be a threat to all, it will not allow peace in Afghanistan and will ensure that peace between Pakistan and India will never become a reality, it's simply not in it's interest.

Lets reconsider this rush to redevelop relations that have no solid basis, are at best transitory, are designed to keep Pakistan in perpetual state of threat from India, and threaten to create distance between our true friends and allies. It's a dog.

 

[Quwa]

Depending on the political climate that is, we must ensure we get them as soon as possible. There is new elections coming up in 2012 in USA and Democratic party is just so gonna lose.

People were worried what would happen when the Republicans lost.

Nowadays it would seem the U.S (in particular the Pentagon) is trying to consolidate and maintain its relations with Pakistan. Granted that Afghanistan was a significant pillar for U.S. leniency towards Pakistan, but there are longer-term matters at hand. There is a reason why the Americans are pushing for greater interoperability with the Pakistani forces. The inclusion in Red Flag, Green Flag, CTF-150, etc, sale of Link-16, and offer of Hawkeye 2000 cannot be taken too lightly. They may not seem like much, but these sorts of initiatives, offerings and sales are not easily granted/transfered under 'short-term arrangements'.

 

[Quwa]

Why more F16's ? Soon the F35 will replace F16 in the inventories of Western Air Forces and these will need a home ---

Can't say 'how soon' yet though...it would seem that key F-16 operators will be flying their F-16s for a while. Nonetheless, additional F-16s have their merit: A technologically advanced and matured fighter already in service with PAF, follow-on orders should be smooth inductions. Secondly, considerable investment has gone into raising infrastructure for the C/Ds, why not utilize the basics to enhance capabilities? In substantive terms, the Block-52+, MLU and CCIP are solid contenders against the general IAF fleet, I daresay even the future MRCAs. And should new embargoes hit Pakistan, well the additional airframes would come in handy as reserves for attrition and spare-parts - keep a good fighter useful when needed.

 

[Trisonics]

Why more F16's ? Soon the F35 will replace F16 in the inventories of Western Air Forces and these will need a home -- better to develop industrial expertise that allows us to do to the kinds of refurbishment we may wish to do on these aircraft should we purchase them.

A continuing problem with any US aircraft will be gauranteed supply, spares and the economics of operating US equipment - I'm all for good relations with US -- but the greater the involvement of the US in the kind of force the PAF becomes, the less our autonomy of action with regard to what we think we want/need and how and when/where to use these assets.

I would like to remind readers of US/Pak relations - they have never had a soldi basis, and they don't have one now - it's very sad and distressing to see this blind rush to include the US in Pakistani power, it's a terrible, terrible mistake.

Some have argued that it makes sense given an India that is going huff and puff our house down - now I'm not suggesting that the Indian don't have that capablity or that some sections of opinion are not desperately seeking just that -- but between the US and India which is a greater net negative for Pakistan in the near and medium future? I would argue without a doubt, it's the US - The Indian may want to make mischief but he knows that everything built in the last 25 years and the future will disappear overnight if they engage in hostilities - The US on the other hand will continue to be a threat to all, it will not allow peace in Afghanistan and will ensure that peace between Pakistan and India will never become a reality, it's simply not in it's interest.

Lets reconsider this rush to redevelop relations that have no solid basis, are at best transitory, are designed to keep Pakistan in perpetual state of threat from India, and threaten to create distance between are true friends and allies. It's a dog.

I do agree with some of your points, but in-spite of the love-hate relationship with the US, they are still the only source for Pak to get the latest military technology, its not the Chinese!!! I do not see a reason why you will not get the F35 in a decades time, provided the WOT ends amicably and the US is greatly satisfied.

As far as the relation ship with India goes, the first blame should go to both India and Pakistan for not mending their ways for the past 60 years. Seriously! there can be no excuse for this!!

 

[Donatello]

Why more F16's ? Soon the F35 will replace F16 in the inventories of Western Air Forces and these will need a home -- better to develop industrial expertise that allows us to do to the kinds of refurbishment we may wish to do on these aircraft should we purchase them.

A continuing problem with any US aircraft will be gauranteed supply, spares and the economics of operating US equipment - I'm all for good relations with US -- but the greater the involvement of the US in the kind of force the PAF becomes, the less our autonomy of action with regard to what we think we want/need and how and when/where to use these assets.

I would like to remind readers of US/Pak relations - they have never had a soldi basis, and they don't have one now - it's very sad and distressing to see this blind rush to include the US in Pakistani power, it's a terrible, terrible mistake.

Some have argued that it makes sense given an India that is going huff and puff our house down - now I'm not suggesting that the Indian don't have that capablity or that some sections of opinion are not desperately seeking just that -- but between the US and India which is a greater net negative for Pakistan in the near and medium future? I would argue without a doubt, it's the US - The Indian may want to make mischief but he knows that everything built in the last 25 years and the future will disappear overnight if they engage in hostilities - The US on the other hand will continue to be a threat to all, it will not allow peace in Afghanistan and will ensure that peace between Pakistan and India will never become a reality, it's simply not in it's interest.

Lets reconsider this rush to redevelop relations that have no solid basis, are at best transitory, are designed to keep Pakistan in perpetual state of threat from India, and threaten to create distance between are true friends and allies. It's a dog.

Easy mate.

Pakistan is not making USA it's backbone supplier.


F-16s, we are carefully selecting them and buying as stop gaps.

Future is with J-17 and J-10s...

American Hardware comes from their own money (Some will argue that money is for our blood in the so called WOT) but if we buy equipment from Europe we have to pay ourselves.

That leaves China, with which we have countless orders and JVs. Evident from the latest ships, Subs, Planes, MBRLs, Missiles, Tanks and other know-how that Chinese are giving us.


Even if we get 70 f-16s that is still much less than a third of our airforce.

 

[TOPGUN]

From what i have heard from some PAF personal active and retd... PAF would like to maintain a fleet of alteast 100 vipers old and new lets see where it takes us.

 

[fatman17]

From what i have heard from some PAF personal active and retd... PAF would like to maintain a fleet of alteast 100 vipers old and new lets see where it takes us.

PAF's original plan was exactly that

1st order - 40
2nd order - 11(attrition order)
3rd order - 60
total - 111

 

[muse]

Even if we get 70 f-16s that is still much less than a third of our airforce.

That's a third that cannot be useful -- It's a very big chance to take - I don't think we should take such a chance at all, it's foolish to gamble in this manner. Sooner or later Pak/US relations will take a nose dive, it's built in, it's a house of cards - at which point you will have a third of the Air Force useless, and a third on which all this time, effort, infrastructure and money will have been spent.

And these aircraft come with full time US minders - sure in the event of hostility they will be secured, but in the meantime, they will have gathered information about officers, airmen, facilites and capablities and intentions.

I realize that PAF and policy planners know this better than us, and I would point out that this suggests a greater strategic understanding which should be even more worrisome to Pakistanis, their friends and allies.

 

[Arsalan]

After mumbai attack...2 indian aircraft crossed Pakistani border but were intersepted and locked by our F16s...few say the were M2k. Mig 29 and few say it was Su30. if it was su30. dont it also work as mini Awaks. i mean cant su30 jam F16 or atleast know its location before it locks it

brother just to correct your info:
it was the Mirages that locked the Su-30 and not the F-16z from PAF side.
as a matter of fact non of our F-16 possessed BVR capability at the time of this particular intrusion.
the F-16 BVR ability is just induced last mont after the induction of F-16 Blk52.
(old fleet of F-16 will also be made BVR by MLU and STAR upgrades)


regards!

 

[Arsalan]

PAF had ordered a big package including new engines, airframe reinforcements, targeting pods, customised avionics and counter warfares etc.. but no news no updates on MLU.. what so ever.
Only BVR AIM 120-C5M delivery became public.

and that too is supposedly with the Blk52 purchase.

as for MLU, i agre that there has been much silence, we are also supposed to go for STAR upgrades by TAI after the MLU bringinf the existing fleet on par with blk50/52. howevr what i have learnt from my experience here on this forum, that exaactly is the way PAF does it...Silience..

regards!

 

[Arsalan]

Why more F16's ? Soon the F35 will replace F16 in the inventories of Western Air Forces and these will need a home -- better to develop industrial expertise that allows us to do to the kinds of refurbishment we may wish to do on these aircraft should we purchase them.

A continuing problem with any US aircraft will be gauranteed supply, spares and the economics of operating US equipment - I'm all for good relations with US -- but the greater the involvement of the US in the kind of force the PAF becomes, the less our autonomy of action with regard to what we think we want/need and how and when/where to use these assets.

I would like to remind readers of US/Pak relations - they have never had a solid basis, and they don't have one now - it's very sad and distressing to see this blind rush to include the US in Pakistani power, it's a terrible, terrible mistake.

Some have argued that it makes sense given an India that is going huff and puff our house down - now I'm not suggesting that the Indian don't have that capablity or that some sections of opinion are not desperately seeking just that -- but between the US and India which is a greater net negative for Pakistan in the near and medium future? I would argue without a doubt, it's the US - The Indian may want to make mischief but he knows that everything built in the last 25 years and the future will disappear overnight if they engage in hostilities - The US on the other hand will continue to be a threat to all, it will not allow peace in Afghanistan and will ensure that peace between Pakistan and India will never become a reality, it's simply not in it's interest.

Lets reconsider this rush to redevelop relations that have no solid basis, are at best transitory, are designed to keep Pakistan in perpetual state of threat from India, and threaten to create distance between our true friends and allies. It's a dog.

spot on

what i think is that Pakistan must/is not relay on US equipment to be the work horses of our armed forces. as far as the matter are going so far, that is how we are proceeding.

we get the USN old frigates, i was really disappointed but then i realized that what is the lose in getting them when we are getting them for free and we have F22p and proposed heavier vessels from China and Turkey as front liners...

same goes for air force, we are getting F-16. there are talks of PAF keeping a 90+ fleet of vipers but when you look at other equipments planned for newar future, one realize that PAF is looking to make the FC-20 and the JFT next block the pride of PAF.
for me, the F-16 in years to come will held the same place in PAF, the F-7 and Mirages held in past years when the Vipers ndeed were the pride Gadgets.

similarly the Hawkeye deal,,, do not forget the KJ-200 and erieye.

all in all, that is good going as far as i think...

regards!

 

[razgriz19]

is there any chance for PAF getting f-35?
obviously not now, but like in next 15 years or so....

 

[mjnaushad]

is there any chance for PAF getting f-35?
obviously not now, but like in next 15 years or so....

Turkey

A partner in the project so Turkey might have rights to sell us the plane.

 

[muse]

Not likely -- Anyway, look at building not buying, we are not arabs after all.

 

[MZUBAIR]

Money is another isssue.........we cant buy 5th generation expensive AC's