Pakistan: Dual Nationals Polling

[AlKardai]

Uhh I don't remember pledging my loyalty to any state though

 

[PDF]

I filled out the same form in Pakistan. I'll find the British form for you.

My point is though - what harm is there in my swearing loyalty to two different governments?

Every oath for a Muslim has a limit. The limit is halal and haram. If Pakistan legislated you had to do something haram - would you do it? I don't think any of us would.

I am particularly interested in the case where the loyalties are tested and comes into conflict between both stateS.

Is it Halal to pledge allegiance to a Dis-believing Monarch and Christian Nation (UK is officially a Christian nation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_Governor_of_the_Church_of_England) to become their citizen by choice when other options are available (such as not forced into getting their citizenship).

 

[M. Sarmad]

The issue of dual citizenship is a complex and multifaceted one that warrants careful consideration. The majority of countries worldwide, including India, do not permit dual citizenship. While this policy may be advantageous for developed nations in terms of benefiting from brain drain, it is of little benefit to countries such as Pakistan, which are situated at the bottom of the capitalist hierarchy. Regarding the poll question, such individuals may remain loyal to Pakistan but not necessarily at all times.

 

[That Guy]

Loyalty is the wrong question to ask, even Pakistanis that have never left the homeland are feeling a decline in their nationalism.

The questions should be does Pakistan benefit from overseas Pakistanis? And do overseas Pakistanis hold love for their birth country?

 

[313ghazi]

Is it Halal to pledge allegiance to a Dis-believing Monarch and Christian Nation (UK is officially a Christian nation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_Governor_of_the_Church_of_England) to become their citizen by choice when other options are available (such as not forced into getting their citizenship).

It is as long as it doesn't require you to abandon your deen. RasoolAllah saws himself sent Muslims to Ethiopia where the Christian king was just and the Quraysh were tyrants.

 

[That Guy]

Is it Halal to pledge allegiance to a Dis-believing Monarch and Christian Nation (UK is officially a Christian nation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_Governor_of_the_Church_of_England) to become their citizen by choice when other options are available (such as not forced into getting their citizenship).

Pakistan itself is hardly Islamic, despite its name. I don't buy this argument.

Also what @313ghazi said is true

 

[313ghazi]

@PDF this is the form I fill out.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...wQFnoECBIQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1-XuLoGqVxAvBq-PSke5kA

As you can see the British are not insecure and don't need anyone to pledge loyalty or declare religious statements.

 

[PDF]

It is as long as it doesn't require you to abandon your deen. RasoolAllah saws himself sent Muslims to Ethiopia where the Christian king was just and the Quraysh were tyrants.

And folks who seek British citizenship by pledge loyalty because they are prosecuted and need to take refuge elsewhere as was the case of Muslims that were told to to go to Ethiopia?

I never knew Pakistan was that bad for you.

 

[PDF]

@PDF this is the form I fill out.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...wQFnoECBIQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1-XuLoGqVxAvBq-PSke5kA

As you can see the British are not insecure and don't need anyone to pledge loyalty or declare religious statements.

I am not that sure if British is that good as you hold them.

If your application is approved, you will need to take part in a citizenship ceremony.

The form of citizenship oath and pledge for registration of or naturalisation as a British citizen is as follows: Oath: "I, [name], swear by Almighty God that, on becoming a British citizen, I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, Her Heirs and Successors according to law." Pledge: "I will give my loyalty to the United Kingdom and respect its rights and freedoms. I will uphold its democratic values. I will observe its laws faithfully and fulfil my duties and obligations as a British citizen."

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/258235/oathofallegiance.pdf

It is interesting that I have to inform a British Citizen of what he pledges and takes oath as someone who never got the opportunity or tried the process.

 

[PDF]

Pakistan itself is hardly Islamic, despite its name. I don't buy this argument.

Agreed. But you pledge allegiance to state not govt. The state officially and formally is Islamic. But even if it wasn't Islamic, the argument to Halal still lingers.
In Pakistan, most likely you were a citizen by birth and thus had no option to pledge loyalty anywhere else at the time. But I am specifically asking about dual nationals who have to liberty to chose citizenship and are not forced to take refuge and nationality due to religious prosecution etc.

 

[313ghazi]

And folks who seek British citizenship by pledge loyalty because they are prosecuted and need to take refuge elsewhere as was the case of Muslims that were told to to go to Ethiopia?

I never knew Pakistan was that bad for you.

Alhamdulillah you are blessed brother if Pakistan is not that bad for you. For people like us it is both the home in our hearts and hell at the same time.

A few years ago I had a young cousin die in an ambulance whilst trying to get to hospital to get treatment. In our part of people suffering from serious heart attacks are sent to Islamabad.

Nearly ever single one of our elders has lost children to curable disease. Today the rate of loss is the same for our poorer neighbours.

We got electricity in the late 80s. We didn't have a road to our village till the early 80s. My cousins who are of a similar age to me didn't have books in school they wrote on wood slates covered in some sort of white clay.

I looked at one of my nephews schoolbooks. His English teacher had corrected a mistake - unfortunately the boy was right and the teacher was wrong.

There are no jobs. Every single family is either dirt poor or has foreign money to survive on.

This is our Pakistan and we love it. If it wasn't for expats us Mirpuri would be like those in Thar or Balochistan.

I am not that sure if British is that good as you hold them.


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https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/258235/oathofallegiance.pdf

It is interesting that I have to inform a British Citizen of what he pledges and takes oath as someone who never got the opportunity or tried the process.

Those pledges are for naturalised citizens.

 

[313ghazi]

Agreed. But you pledge allegiance to state not govt. The state officially and formally is Islamic. But even if it wasn't Islamic, the argument to Halal still lingers.
In Pakistan, most likely you were a citizen by birth and thus had no option to pledge loyalty anywhere else at the time. But I am specifically asking about dual nationals who have to liberty to chose citizenship and are not forced to take refuge and nationality due to religious prosecution etc.

On this point from what I understand Muslims are not religiously obligated to pledge loyalty to a Muslim state - we are obligated to pledge loyalty to the Caliph.

 

[That Guy]

Agreed. But you pledge allegiance to state not govt. The state officially and formally is Islamic. But even if it wasn't Islamic, the argument to Halal still lingers.
In Pakistan, most likely you were a citizen by birth and thus had no option to pledge loyalty anywhere else at the time. But I am specifically asking about dual nationals who have to liberty to chose citizenship and are not forced to take refuge and nationality due to religious prosecution etc.

Then you have to define what a state is? If the state is its citizens, then the entire state by definition is not Islamic. If you're talking about the constitution, which changes constantly to suit the whims of those in power, then your argument fails again because Pakistani constitution has rules and laws that many scholars would argue are unIslamic.

Anyway, your argument also doesn't work for non-Muslim Pakistani duel citizens.

 

[AA_]

Not completely loyal but more loyal than the folks currently running Pakistan right now. Overseas Pakistanis do not have a crab in a bucket mentality unlike the Pakistanis currently ruling Pakistan. They will go to no lengths and undermine each other to make their foreign sponsors happy. Just my observation. The American system produces men that might politically differ from each others, but they generally do not mess with the political system or processes if it benefitting the US. The ones in Pakistan undermine each others and the system, and if a competitor is getting more clout or kudos then they whore themselves to foreigners to undermine the strong and the incorruptible. Pakistan needs a think tank run by overseas Pakistanis to start recording lessons and then apply solutions. Integrity, ethics, loyalty is what Pakistan needs.

Even the one organization that’s supposed to be loyal to Pakistan has sold its soul (and Kashmir) for businesses and properties overseas. If the sole loyal organization is selling Pakistans interests, imagine the caliber of others and how far they’re willing to go to sell each Pakistani under to the enemy for mere Pennies.

Look at BZB currently in India. They literally chosen one the most incompetent person in Pakistan to go represent the country. Just look at his appearance, fat and Humpty. That tells me he has no self respect in his appearance and is lazy. A normal functioning with an ounce of self respect country would’ve dig deep in Pakistan to find a competent being to represent Pakistans interest, but here you have children of dynasty families with no competency, understanding of foreign affairs, and low intellectual “fighting” for Pakistan.

I remembered the very first interview by BZB to CNN. In the background there was a flag of his political party and not of Pakistan. I was dumbfounded at this move. Imagine the intelligent of the folks that chose people like that to represent Pakistan.

People shouldn’t get mad at the Arabs for not defending Kashmir when your own sold out and then some of us curse the Arabs for taking the bindus side.

What a failure of government Pakistan has become. I made remark of the Iranians hitting Pakistan a few posts and everything lost their marbles. I should have clarified, hit GHQ and burn it down. It’s a nest of snakes stealthily spreading cancer and corruption throughout the lands.

 

[mudassar93]

Casting vote yes but should never be public office holder in pakistan .