Pakistan Deal for Chinese J-10 Fighters Uncertain

[Luftwaffe]

Look discussed to death, No Funds no new Aircrafts either J-10s, F-16s or even JF-17s. The main focus at the time is JF-17s it is better as PAF plans to enhance and bring in new Blocks they are only concentrating on Thunders.

@Aeronaut I think thread should be closed.

 

[alimobin memon]

Just so you know except high maneuverability jf17 can be made as bit as capable as j10. IRST can be equipped Radar can be installed same as j10b or identical as it is confirmed that jf17 radar klj7 is as bit as capable as klj10 just jf17 version. So even if we buy j10 in low number there are chances that jf17 can be equipped with good avionics. Yes Jf17 was made as low cost light fighter but it eventually will turn into a medium weight fighter like Gripen Directly reaching a 6000kg payload limit.

 

[BATMAN]

Let's get one thing straight: we're a nation with a military not a military with a nation. That means, our military would have to do with what we, as a people, can earn and give them. Simple as that. You want a better military? Have a better economy. IMF or no IMF, USA or no USA, India or no India. This thing does not change.

There is another way get rid of the civilian institutions, who are black holes of capital and zero results.

Let's get it straight, you are surrounded by states, that cannot tolerate your presence on earth.

Without a strong military, you will be annihilated but without civil administration you will only save money, which you pay daily as bribe.

Where as J-10 had no future in presence of JFT... Pakistan need to focus on JFT and need to forget the reset.

 

[PakShaheen79]

Look discussed to death, No Funds no new Aircrafts either J-10s, F-16s or even JF-17s. The main focus at the time is JF-17s it is better as PAF plans to enhance and bring in new Blocks they are only concentrating on Thunders.

@Aeronaut I think thread should be closed.

Political will is more necessary than funds I think people here are not assessing the impact on Pakistan's national security if this news of IMF's direct control over military spending is correct. J-10B will be least of our concerns, IMF's most fav. spending cut will be on our strategic defense capability. Nukes + delivery systems!!

 

[joekrish]

The curse (IMF) is your boon.

 

[jupiter2007]

China is going to bailout Pakistan but only on ONE condition........Military Government......because Military Government is less corrupt then democrazy.

Current government should stop dragging their feet and re-open all the cases against corrupt politicians who have looted Pakistan.
35-50 billions dollars were stolen from Pakistan in last 20 years. These corrupt politicians should be held responsible.

 

[jaibi]

There is another way get rid of the civilian institutions, who are black holes of capital and zero results.

Agreed. It takes time though, true for all civilisations.

Let's get it straight, you are surrounded by states, that cannot tolerate your presence on earth.

Agreed; however, these very 'states' have engaged in a policy of exhausting our economic ability to be a challenger state, exactly what the Americans did to the Soviets and the Soviets tried to do to the Americans.

"In an increasingly complex world where more than ever non-military ways of engaging in 'warfare' has not only become an option but a center piece of strategy practiced by nation-states of the modern world entering the 21st century, it pays to understand how the concept or the art of war has changed or why... it is increasingly thought with resonance in every circle attached to military science and history, that the modern 'war' will not be at the end of missiles but in the midst stock exchanges across the world and across the mass-culture propagated across T.V. screens" - The Art of War in World History
From Antiquity to the Nuclear Age
Gérard Chaliand, Introduction to the anthology iiv-vi.

Secondly, brother, we're a militant and resilient people. If it comes to it, every household would put a soldier on its rooftop and it's impossible to conquer 180 million soldiers, this is not pride but reality. In 1965 we turned Lahore into our Stalingrad, we would do it again against every foe, from any direction.

Without a strong military, you will be annihilated but without civil administration you will only save money, which you pay daily as bribe.

Disagree, in every society where the civil society is not in control of the military there is limited progress as the military is not directly accountable to the people. Granted we've had had bad experiences with democracy, however, that is the way to go. If you make the military accountable to people and install it in power then maybe you could offer Pakistan an alternative.

Strongly disagree, no one paid any bribes, did you, brother? I did not. These people are a victim of the circumstance our bureaucracy is not filled with bad people; it's a bad system adopted from a colonial empire which not fit for an independent nation. I say that as a professional: corruption is sociological not individual.

Where as J-10 had no future in presence of JFT... Pakistan need to focus on JFT and need to forget the reset.

Pakistan is at war on every front: ideological, economic, international, diplomatic, media and so on. We need to fight it like one. We need our warriors in uniform, in civil service, in schools, in businesses, in TV, in universities, we need us to stand up and that's not the military, it is us, the military is ours.

 

[Dillinger]

In other words, you dont have anything to back up your statement. Because I dont see where he lays out what you say.
Lets get other opinions on this.
@Dillinger @sandy_3126



Woo Hoo.

What's cooking here? @bandit Oh bhai problem kya hai, batao Dilli baba ko.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

2014 is the year J10 will arrive mark that year Indians

 

[Dillinger]

@bandit Now personally, I'd pick the block 52s even for technological reasons, it is a proven and capable aircraft. BUT the PAF would be happy with any platform that can provide x no. of capabilities within a certain combat radius and with a certain reliability and the J-10 would fit in if required.

The issues though is a bit different, and @Oscar has given you the hint. A new platform will require TACDE's opposite number in the PAF to then go through the hoops, operational manuals and then set off on operational conversion- then FOC. It is by no means a short or simple process. On the other hand a Viper derivative does not impose all of that on the PAF and can do all that the PAF needs it to do.

On a side note- to those thinking that the JF-17 will be "stealthified" or turned into a medium fighter, you are seriously underestimating the design challenges involved and the limits set up by the original design constraints.

Lastly- the PAF is more concerned about having a consolidated fleet of Vipers and JFs which can operate reliably under all circumstances and allow them to fulfill their mandate. Operational doctrines and resultant acquisitions DO NOT flow from the wishes of the fanboys.

 

[Pakistanisage]

It is a balancing act for the PAF. From PAF's perspective, J-10B is a better Fighter than JF-17, but with new improvements in newer Blocks of JF-17 this gap between J-10b and Thunder is shrinking. If PAF acquires J-10B by 2017, some of the 5th Generation Chinese fighters may be becoming operational in another couple of years and it would make sense to wait few more years and go for the next generation of fighters. Continue to develop Block 2 and Block 3 versions of JF-17 and make them the backbone of PAF, using future Fifth Generation fighters in an Air Superiority role.

PAF may seriously be considering to utilize JF-17 block 2 and block 3 to bridge the Gap with J-10B and instead leapfrog to fifth generation aircrafts by 2020. Such a strategy has it merits and also buys time to improve Economy to pay for these expensive toys.

 

[fatman17]

Thursday, October 10, 2013

No J-10 for you.


Why the change of heart?


J-10 fighter not yet approved for export

(Source: China Military Online)

BEIJING, October 10 (ChinaMil) --As global attention has been drawn to when China’s in-service top-grade home-made J-10 fighter aircraft enters the international market, Ma Zhiping, vice president of the China National Aero-Technology Import and Export Corporation (CATIC), disclosed recently that many countries in Asia, Africa and Latin America had already enquired about price of J-10.

According to Ma Zhiping, many clients have contacted to enquire the price of J-10 series fighters. These clients came from various countries in Asia, Africa and Latin America and include those traditional users of Chinese military aircraft as well as those countries which previously used Russia’s series fighters and French fighters.

Nevertheless, according to U.S.s’ Defense News on October 7, the most probable buyer of J-10, Pakistan, might put off the purchase plan under the influence of economic factors and technology maturity.

Ma Zhiping made a clear statement in an interview by reporters from Global Times on September 25 that: “We can say in a very responsible way that the J-10 fighter aircraft hasn’t been exported to Pakistan. The export of a model of military aircraft has to be approved by the country first. However, J-10 hasn’t acquired the related export license so far.”

Editorong Zhaohui

its the engine export licence!







Thursday, October 01, 2009

J-10B for Pakistan


This article confirms what we already know for some time – the Pakistan Air Force is interested in J-10B instead of the standard J-10 variant currently in service with the PLAAF.


No big surprise per se.




DATE:30/09/09

SOURCE:Flight International

China's AVIC steps up sales push for FC-1, J-10 fighters

By Siva Govindasamy

China's AVIC steps up sales push for FC-1, J-10 fighters

China plans to market the Chengdu FC-1/JF-17 and J-10 fighters aggressively as part of its plan to become a major player in the global aerospace industry.

"While AVIC's main job is to manufacture aircraft, the company also fulfils a national agenda by producing military aircraft for China's political allies around the world," says a source close to Chengdu's state-owned parent company. "There are also countries that would like to buy a good fighter, but not at the cost of a Western fighter.

"While China's military aircraft have been exported for many years, this is the first time that there is a concerted effort to properly market them and establish a support network," the source adds.

In the past few months, senior company officials have been identifying the military products that will be given the most attention for the export market. In the fighter segment, the JF-17 and the J-10 are the two most important aircraft, says the source.

"Given that the JF-17 has been in service in China and Pakistan for a number of years and is a mature programme, it is being given first priority," the source adds.

Islamabad, which helped to develop the JF-17, has committed to buying 150 aircraft produced by the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex. This figure could rise to 300 aircraft to replace the country's air force fleets of Nanchang A-5s, Chengdu F-7s and Dassault Mirage III and Mirage Vs.

The JF-17 will be able to carry a variety of conventional and precision-guided bombs, and air-to-air and air-to-sea missiles from short- to beyond-visual-range. The type is already being marketed to countries in Africa, the Middle East, South America and South-East Asia.

"The J-10 is not ready for export yet, as AVIC is still finalising upgrades for the fighter," the source says. "But there has been interest from several countries."

AVIC is likely to begin exports of the new type - which entered Chinese air force service in early 2007 - after it has finished developing an upgraded J-10B version. Enhancements are to include a modified vertical stabiliser and ventral fins, redesigned engine inlet, a new radar and an infrared search and track sensor.

Pakistan is likely to be the first export customer, having begun negotiations to buy 36 aircraft several years ago. To be designated locally as FC-20s, deliveries are likely to begin from 2014-15.

Beijing could extend loans to purchasing countries and offer local assembly if there are sufficient orders, the source adds.

 

[Jazzbot]

And you believed him Shame on YOU

I don't, but sadly majority of illiterate people of this country do believe him.

 

[Black Eagle 90]

TAIPEI AND ISLAMABAD — Tough International Monetary Fund conditions on Pakistan and concerns about untested technology likely will delay Islamabad’s plan to buy 36 J-10B Vigorous Dragon multirole fighters from China under a $1.4 billion deal signed in 2009, analysts said.

Current economic conditions “preclude any possibility of acquiring new weapon systems in the next two to three years, at least,” said retired Pakistani Air Commodore Kaiser Tufail, a veteran fighter and test pilot who is now an independent military analyst in Lahore.

Under IMF loan terms, the government faces harsh conditions on raising revenue and controlling spending, including on military equipment.

A Chinese defense delegation visited Pakistan the last week of September to discuss the status of stalled defense deals. Whether this included the J-10 order is unclear.

The J-10B Super-10 is an advanced variant of the J-10A, first fielded in late 2003 with China’s Air Force. The new Super-10 will reportedly be powered by the Chinese-designed WS-10A turbofan engine, which will replace the J-10A’s Russian Saturn AL-31FN. Built by Chengdu Aircraft Industries, the jet is based on Israel’s Lavi indigenous fighter program by Israel Aerospace Industries that was canceled in 1987.

Even if a friendly Arab Gulf state provided financing, Tufail said more used Lockheed Martin F-16Cs from US stocks are preferable, “rather than trying out a new weapon system that is an unknown commodity in the realm of modern-day combat.”

Tufail questioned the wisdom of buying one squadron of J-10s.

To be cost effective “at least three to four squadrons would justify the additional wherewithal and maintenance facilities that would be needed,” he said.

Over-reliance on US high-technology equipment like fighters worries Pakistani officials, and while Tufail said diversification “be explored fully, with China and Russia as suitable sources,” in the case of the fighter, the government may not have another option.

Should a deal occur, however, Tufail foresees no problems with directly or indirectly acquiring Russian equipment such as the J-10’s AL-31FN engine.

The J-10B was first revealed to the public in early 2009. Images appearing on Chinese-language military websites indicate the J-10B had a new nose configuration with an infrared search and tracking system and a “new Diverterless Supersonic Intake configured engine air intake,” also seen on the Chengdu FC-1 Xiaolong (Fierce Dragon), which is co-produced in Pakistan as the JF-17 Thunder, said Richard Fisher, a senior fellow of Asian military affairs at the International Assessment and Strategy Center.

At least one prototype J-10B has featured the indigenous Shenyang-Liming WS-10A turbofan engine, but it remains to be seen whether all production J-10Bs will feature the WS-10A or the Russian Saturn AL-31F turbofan,” Fisher said.

“I think the JF-17 arrangement has been a workable one so far, and future weapon systems with core Russian and Chinese components can be acquired by the Pakistan Air Force on a similar basis, without difficulty,” Tufail said.

Russia allowed China to supply Pakistan the JF-17s Klimov RD-93 engine despite Indian opposition, and prospects have since improved.

“The thawing of Pak-Russo relations over the past few years is certainly a welcome development, and should help override Indian objections to any military cooperation between Pakistan and Russia,” Tufail said.

Technological advances may also scrap the J-10 deal.

Tufail believes the air force may be turning to the stealthy Chengdu J-20 though this is not presently “anything beyond a mere statement of intent.”

“It is a futuristic aircraft, not yet fully operational, and its capabilities are hardly known, so reading too much into this may be rather premature,” Tufail said.

The J-10B would offer Pakistan some advanced fourth generation capabilities.

“The canted nose cone immediately led to speculation that the J-10B also featured a new fixed antennae phased array radar and this was confirmed in 2011,” Fisher said. “There remains some speculation that this radar may be a ‘passive’ versus an ‘active’ electronically scanned array [AESA], but the key point is that the J-10B is clearly a 4+ generation fighter that also included upgraded cockpit systems and electronic warfare systems.”

But if Pakistan chooses not to become the first customer for an export configured J-10B, at $50-60 million per aircraft it will become attractive to countries like Venezuela, Argentina, Peru, Malaysia and Indonesia, who are looking for an affordable multi-role fighter, Fisher said.

Pakistan Deal for Chinese J-10 Fighters Uncertain | Defense News | defensenews.com

The news is true but PAF is quite interested in J-31 and they will going to produce it for themselves.

 

[Black Widow]

Untill Chinese Sort out the Engine Issue PAF would not opt for J10B. Or may be AHQ has shifted its focus to something like J31, May be they want to wait abit more and see if They can avoid another 4th gen plane and go for next gen. I don't think so IMF or Financial issues are the main cause for delay because chinese have always provided equipment with loans.

What engine problem?