Pakistan can't afford to have bullet trains: Railway minister

[WhyCry]

We Are not Supa Powa Like India

Ok.. AIDs powa

 

[Mr.Nair]

We Are not Supa Powa Like India



Lol idiot i just mention that India is taking loan of $15 Billion for HSR.. so HSR in Pakistan will cost that much...

You are Export to other Countries and Importing yourself WOW

Ok you can repay then why not pay Billions of Dollars debt first

Do you think i can't abuse you *****.You are a liar as well. You told that 'India is taking loan from japan of 15 billion dollar'and not 'loan of 15 billion for HSR'.By the way china made fun on your country, once you talked about bullet train and Japan pledge india for the same project(No fun), shows difference between India and pakistan.Yes India is a big country with big economy/population and by the way it is your master china is on big debt.

 

[Dani_Insafian]

ab noon league k supporter kya karyngy. lolx

 

[Muhammad Omar]

Ok.. AIDs powa

Take care supa rape powa

Actually when Mian Muhammad Nawaz Sharif Sahab said a blunder that we will make a bullet train in Pakistan, we all had a good laugh on PDF back those days talking about his nonsensical claim that it was simply not possible for Pakistan to afford such a high cost project with economy of around 170 billion dollars back then.

The Chinese did give an estimated quote of 67 billion dollars and all he had to do was to politely apologise to the people of Pakistan that he wasn't aware of the high costs before making a blunder

I think Bullet train is not feasible for us in present circumstances. If only our economy grows to something like over a trillion dollars, then may be we can talk about affording such luxuries

Pakistan Railways's top priority should be to upgrade its existing Main Lines of ML-1, ML-2, ML-3 and ML-4 and signal improvement to prevent accidents and when all this have been upgraded (costing between 20-40 billion dollars) then we can talk about bullet trains

agree with you

well ML-1 Up-gradation will begin in March 2017

 

[Malik Alashter]

How fast is the trains of Pakistan.

So how about the 160 KM/h on the same track.

 

[Muhammad Omar]

Do you think i can't abuse you *****.You are a liar as well. You told that 'India is taking loan from japan of 15 billion dollar'and not 'loan of 15 billion for HSR'.By the way china made fun on your country, once you talked about bullet train and Japan pledge india for the same project(No fun), shows difference between India and pakistan.Yes India is a big country with big economy/population and by the way it is your master china is on big debt.

India is a big country with big economy and 1/3 of world poor please also get loans to build toilet too..
India is under dept too big one pay that
with 67% GDP to debt ratio LOL

 

[niaz]

Niaz sb,

Does Pakistan need large investments in railway for cargo. Wudnt it be better advised to develop its inland waterways, most of its big business and industries wud be right along the rivers.

Regards

Direct answer to your question is YES.

I don’t read a lot about Pakistan Railways as I am primarily an energy / Petroleum consultant. Nevertheless Pakistan is close to my heart and I have had many a pleasant journeys travelling on Pakistan Railways during my early youth. Hence, when I come across an article about Pakistan Railways, I read it diligently.

Everyone is aware that goods transportation by train is the most cost effective way over long distances and traditionally profit from the goods carriage subsidizes the passenger fares. But that would be when the Railways provide relatively inexpensive, safe and reliable mode of transportation

Ground reality is that Pakistan Railways has been one of the most neglected public sectors in Pakistan. After the Ayyub Khan era, there has hardly been any in new investment except double lines between Khandwa & Raiwind. Even the Karachi Circular Railway built during Ayyub Khan’s time has been left to rot.

Regret to say that no gov’t could be as bad as the PPP gov’t. Decline in Pakistan Railways started soon after Benazir took over following Zia’s death in 1988.

According to an article published in Dawn on august 17, 2015; in 1986, the consulting arm of the Canadian Pacific Railways won a contract to propose specifications for a computerized management information system. It was reported that Pakistan Railways operated 8,800 km of track and carried 11-million tons of freight and 100-million passengers.

Whereas, as per the statistics of 2013- 2014; Pakistan Railways carried only 47-million passengers and the volume of freight was down to mere 1.6-million tons. Despite the drastic decline in services, Railways still employed a workforce of 80,000!

Railways’ own records show that the locomotive fleet stood at over 950 and the number of passenger coaches exceeded 2,370 in the early 80s. However, by 2013-14, Railways was left with only 1,434 coaches and fewer than 500 locomotives of which only 20 per cent were operational. The rest were either too old or too damaged to operate.

Railways on average, 600,000 freight wagons during the early 80’s but 2013-14, that number was down to 76,300.

Pakistan Railways is a pigmy compared to the Indian Railways; nevertheless we have 11,300 Km of railway lines with 532 major and 13,309 minor bridges spread out over the system. Nearly all the bridges were built in 1870’s; just to revamp the 14,000 odd bridges alone is no mean task.

It is estimated that about 200 to 250 billion rupees are required just to revamp the infrastructure alone. It is almost an insurmountable task at a time when Pak Railways is incurring an annual loss of Rs 100-billion!

There was some improvement during the Musharraf era. But priorities of the democratic governments appear to be different. There is lot of money allocated to motorways and road transport instead.

Therefore when people talk of high speed trains, I sincerely wish that the young men should look towards running whatever we already have efficiently before dreaming of 200 Kim per hour trains. But then old age has turned me into a ‘Cynic’.

Kindly note that I did not make up the numbers and used the info from published articles

 

[FuturePAF]

Direct answer to your question is YES.

I don’t read a lot about Pakistan Railways as I am primarily an energy / Petroleum consultant. Nevertheless Pakistan is close to my heart and I have had many a pleasant journeys travelling on Pakistan Railways during my early youth. Hence, when I come across an article about Pakistan Railways, I read it diligently.

Everyone is aware that goods transportation by train is the most cost effective way over long distances and traditionally profit from the goods carriage subsidizes the passenger fares. But that would be when the Railways provide relatively inexpensive, safe and reliable mode of transportation

Ground reality is that Pakistan Railways has been one of the most neglected public sectors in Pakistan. After the Ayyub Khan era, there has hardly been any in new investment except double lines between Khandwa & Raiwind. Even the Karachi Circular Railway built during Ayyub Khan’s time has been left to rot.

Regret to say that no gov’t could be as bad as the PPP gov’t. Decline in Pakistan Railways started soon after Benazir took over following Zia’s death in 1988.

According to an article published in Dawn on august 17, 2015; in 1986, the consulting arm of the Canadian Pacific Railways won a contract to propose specifications for a computerized management information system. It was reported that Pakistan Railways operated 8,800 km of track and carried 11-million tons of freight and 100-million passengers.

Whereas, as per the statistics of 2013- 2014; Pakistan Railways carried only 47-million passengers and the volume of freight was down to mere 1.6-million tons. Despite the drastic decline in services, Railways still employed a workforce of 80,000!

Railways’ own records show that the locomotive fleet stood at over 950 and the number of passenger coaches exceeded 2,370 in the early 80s. However, by 2013-14, Railways was left with only 1,434 coaches and fewer than 500 locomotives of which only 20 per cent were operational. The rest were either too old or too damaged to operate.

Railways on average, 600,000 freight wagons during the early 80’s but 2013-14, that number was down to 76,300.

Pakistan Railways is a pigmy compared to the Indian Railways; nevertheless we have 11,300 Km of railway lines with 532 major and 13,309 minor bridges spread out over the system. Nearly all the bridges were built in 1870’s; just to revamp the 14,000 odd bridges alone is no mean task.

It is estimated that about 200 to 250 billion rupees are required just to revamp the infrastructure alone. It is almost an insurmountable task at a time when Pak Railways is incurring an annual loss of Rs 100-billion!

There was some improvement during the Musharraf era. But priorities of the democratic governments appear to be different. There is lot of money allocated to motorways and road transport instead.

Therefore when people talk of high speed trains, I sincerely wish that the young men should look towards running whatever we already have efficiently before dreaming of 200 Kim per hour trains. But then old age has turned me into a ‘Cynic’.

Kindly note that I did not make up the numbers and used the info from published articles

Perhaps not a Cynic but a Pragmatist (although our beloved nation tries us time and time again)
You are right that management of what we have must be done first before anything else can be discussed, but we have a 150 year old rail network and still have people who want to use it because it is the cheapest means of transportation, so we must think of making it work.

The Following article points to a 6.6 Billion Pound or $10 Billion dollar proposal to rebuild the main line to run trains at 150-200 kmph
http://www.dawn.com/news/1201004

If the Chinese are laying new tracks and we can have the type of tracks that will allow 160 kph speeds we should be grateful and work with what we get. The first goal must be to turn a profit for the railways as it has to pay for the investment the Chinese are making and subsidize the passenger service.

while it is being built; On our part we should consider the factors contributing to the total travel time of 18 hours and find ways to reduce it to the planned 7 hours

Straightening the track (and clearing the areas around it to reduce accidents; such as illegal encampments)
finding reliable train-sets to operate on the tracks (such as the Talgo India has picked or the Siemens ES-64)

another is public-private partnerships;
Here in New York the new Penn Station is being build as part of a redevelopment of a near by large post office
it will feature a mall and the private companies will get tax subsidies to cover their costs.

That is how india is doing it (45 year lease to developers)

Pakistan should do something like that at each of its train stations
For-example in Lahore there is prime real estate the railroad owns at mughalpura; that can be turned into a grand new train terminal; built with Pakistani private companies; who would built a Mall and a Hotel on site to get the most number of passenger back onto public transport and off the roads; and eventually hopefully turning a profit. (the railyards can be moved to another part of the city or outside it)

the mughalpura site seems large enough it could house a link to the metro bus system; and could also link to the proposed orange line trains; build in a bus terminal for connections with areas not connected by the train and you have a hub for public transport. For this

but we have to think of an affordable way to move on from the rusting British build tracks the Pakistan railways have mismanaged for so long

if the emporium mall can be built; why not something like that as a railway terminal/mall
http://www.ibexmag.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Emporium-Mall2.jpg

 

[niaz]

Perhaps not a Cynic but a Pragmatist (although our beloved nation tries us time and time again)
You are right that management of what we have must be done first before anything else can be discussed, but we have a 150 year old rail network and still have people who want to use it because it is the cheapest means of transportation, so we must think of making it work.

The Following article points to a 6.6 Billion Pound or $10 Billion dollar proposal to rebuild the main line to run trains at 150-200 kmph
http://www.dawn.com/news/1201004

If the Chinese are laying new tracks and we can have the type of tracks that will allow 160 kph speeds we should be grateful and work with what we get. The first goal must be to turn a profit for the railways as it has to pay for the investment the Chinese are making and subsidize the passenger service.

while it is being built; On our part we should consider the factors contributing to the total travel time of 18 hours and find ways to reduce it to the planned 7 hours

Straightening the track (and clearing the areas around it to reduce accidents; such as illegal encampments)
finding reliable train-sets to operate on the tracks (such as the Talgo India has picked or the Siemens ES-64)

another is public-private partnerships;
Here in New York the new Penn Station is being build as part of a redevelopment of a near by large post office
it will feature a mall and the private companies will get tax subsidies to cover their costs.

That is how india is doing it (45 year lease to developers)

Pakistan should do something like that at each of its train stations
For-example in Lahore there is prime real estate the railroad owns at mughalpura; that can be turned into a grand new train terminal; built with Pakistani private companies; who would built a Mall and a Hotel on site to get the most number of passenger back onto public transport and off the roads; and eventually hopefully turning a profit. (the railyards can be moved to another part of the city or outside it)

the mughalpura site seems large enough it could house a link to the metro bus system; and could also link to the proposed orange line trains; build in a bus terminal for connections with areas not connected by the train and you have a hub for public transport. For this

but we have to think of an affordable way to move on from the rusting British build tracks the Pakistan railways have mismanaged for so long

if the emporium mall can be built; why not something like that as a railway terminal/mall
http://www.ibexmag.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Emporium-Mall2.jpg

Honourable Sir,

I had read that article when it was published. In fact I have mentioned the reference in my post. My objection to high speed train proposal then and now remains.

Pakistan Railway did not put out any plans to improve train services from Sargodha (my home town) to Lahore or to Karachi or from Lahore to Peshawar or from Quetta to Karachi. Pray tell me is Lahore only city in Pakistan? What about rest of the country? Are people living in other cities not Pakistani enough?

Why should passengers from Lahore get to Karachi in 7 hours when residents of Mianwali spend more than twice as long to reach Lahore, that is also on the assumption that the train does not break-down on the way?

I had mentioned it would take about 250-billion Rupees to revamp the existing infrastructure. This is about $2.5-billion. I would also love to have a high speed network working in Pakistan, but I simply want that Pakistan Railways should fix the existing net-work before they start on the high speed link so that Pakistanis living in the cities less fortunate than Lahore can also travel in comfort albeit at slower speeds.

 

[FuturePAF]

Honourable Sir,

I had read that article when it was published. In fact I have mentioned the reference in my post. My objection to high speed train proposal then and now remains.

Pakistan Railway did not put out any plans to improve train services from Sargodha (my home town) to Lahore or to Karachi or from Lahore to Peshawar or from Quetta to Karachi. Pray tell me is Lahore only city in Pakistan? What about rest of the country? Are people living in other cities not Pakistani enough?

Why should passengers from Lahore get to Karachi in 7 hours when residents of Mianwali spend more than twice as long to reach Lahore, that is also on the assumption that the train does not break-down on the way?

I had mentioned it would take about 250-billion Rupees to revamp the existing infrastructure. This is about $2.5-billion. I would also love to have a high speed network working in Pakistan, but I simply want that Pakistan Railways should fix the existing net-work before they start on the high speed link so that Pakistanis living in the cities less fortunate than Lahore can also travel in comfort albeit at slower speeds.

Good Sir,

Thank you for your critical response, I appreciate your candid points. Let me start by saying, I too am not from Lahore. I genuinely want to see development spread around the entirety of our nation.

I agree with you the first step needs to be rehabilitating the current network for the proposed $2.5 Billion you mentioned, as well as better management of the railroad so it becomes a profitable organization once again, allowing passenger rail to be subsidized once again and making travel more affordable for the average traveler.

Lets say we get the $2.5 Billion Rehabilitation done; we still have the issue of lowering travel times, and raising more revenue (and gaining back passengers from buses and planes).

The cities you mentioned: Sargodha and Mainwali would be linked to Lahore via the Sangla Hill–Kundian Branch Line. To reduce times on this line; double track and electrification could be implemented so that reliable electric trains are run. A good option would be buying the TRAXX 2E by Bombardier or the Chinese version CNR Dalian HXD3D (top speed 160 kph) http://www.crrcgc.cc/dlen/g10688/s20458/t269239.aspx.

The original bombardier version costs an average of $4.23 Million Per Locomotive (per the recent Israeli purchase). The Chinese version is presumably to be a little more affordable; possibly $4 million.

On the main lines use with modern European style carriages could be for first class express train (stopping only at major cities), i.e. high speed trains. While the same locomotive with our current carriages could serve the same route for regular fare paying customers.

http://news.cnhubei.com/ctjb/ctjbsgk/ctjb02/201011/W020101129288271092265.jpg
https://photo.tuchong.com/413712/f/7156398.jpg

https://trainoftheweek.blogspot.com/2015/03/china-railways-hxd3d.html
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/QUqq1SUIEq8/maxresdefault.jpg

Then the issue is the quality of the concrete sleepers; which would be need to reach high speeds. this is where the real costs will come into. currently Pakistan is speeding approx. 112 million rupees ($1.07 Million) per km of track. It is 200 km to Sargodha; so at 22.4 Billion Rupees or $ 224 Million Double Track

as far as when they would do this
http://www.dawn.com/news/1189508

Now is the issue of financing, while Sargodha is the 11th largest city in the nation, it is on a branch line. In order to raise the money to pay for the upgrading on the line and the modern signalling equipment, each major station will need to be operated as a private-public partnership with a developer. Mall operators (such as the Al-Rehman Trade Centre) can develop a Mall integral with the station; While the government can incentives Bus operators to build a shared terminal adjacent to the train terminal to facilitate more customers to the mall and thereby have the mall pay more for this deal. each city could also buy land just outside of the current city limit to build this large transit hub; this would also allow straighter tracks to be laid and avoid having to displace people living around existing tracks (land upon which the current tracks are currently could also be sold to property developers to raise capital). A deal with the government of Canada (Where Bombardier is based) to get a soft loan for the locomotives, could help jump start the railways with reliable engines and fulfill the wish for "high speed" trains at an affordable price.