Pakistan can take Laddakh in few days: Samson

[jk007]

I am happy that you take them at their word.

It's just that most of you, you included, take their word for things when it suits you, and mock them for exaggeration when it doesn't suit you. Trouble is, this becomes quite apparent.



WOW!

That means that there are TWO of us - count us, TWO - who are very knowledgeable. Same, same.

I don't know what you mean by my bias against Modi/BJP.

I've already answered your question elsewhere. Look it up.

@Joe Shearer - I did not mean that just reading a book makes one knowledgeable...your posts make me think that you have military background + knowledgeable. You are far more knowledeable.

PS: I know this post has no value, but could not resist.

 

[SQ8]

I am happy that you take them at their word.

It's just that most of you, you included, take their word for things when it suits you, and mock them for exaggeration when it doesn't suit you. Trouble is, this becomes quite apparent.



WOW!

That means that there are TWO of us - count us, TWO - who are very knowledgeable. Same, same.

I don't know what you mean by my bias against Modi/BJP.

I've already answered your question elsewhere. Look it up.

But when putting one’s point across that is human nature. The ground reality is that while India does carry out its plans against us, their effectiveness is highly dependent upon our own incompetence and mismanagement of socioeconomic conditions of ethnicities and the promotion of religious extremism by the establishment.

Now, you can say we exaggerate one or the other depending upon the scenario but the presence of Indian interference and/or intent to interfere and create mayhem in Pakistan remains.

Do we not try for the same via Kashmir and hope for the same otherwise - yes we do but then dushman kis kaam ke honge ham agar itna bhi na karien?

 

[Joe Shearer]

@Joe Shearer - I did not mean that just reading a book makes one knowledgeable...your posts make me think that you have military background + knowledgeable. You are far more knowledeable.

PS: I know this post has no value, but could not resist.

As Oscar Wilde put it, the only way to get rid of temptation is to yield to it.

Do not resist.

On a gentle note of caution, do not assess me just yet. Get to read my posts a bit longer. I am only an old fool searching for knowledge, and sharing with others the scraps I have garnered, but there are an awful lot of scraps.

 

[Baghial]

If u r willing to fight like taliban facing daisy cutter and MOBS then u have a chance to win but remember it will not be a war fought by armies but by the common people.

R our people ready to pay the price ? By honest

well i guess , you should put the same question to people who sacrified everything when migrating to pakistan,1947...............

you realy under estimate the power of islam. wonders , and mircles happened before, and will happen again..... just need to hold on to the rope of faith,

 

[Joe Shearer]

But when putting one’s point across that is human nature. The ground reality is that while India does carry out its plans against us, their effectiveness is highly dependent upon our own incompetence and mismanagement of socioeconomic conditions of ethnicities and the promotion of religious extremism by the establishment.

Now, you can say we exaggerate one or the other depending upon the scenario but the presence of Indian interference and/or intent to interfere and create mayhem in Pakistan remains.

Do we not try for the same via Kashmir and hope for the same otherwise - yes we do but then dushman kis kaam ke honge ham agar itna bhi na karien?

Yes, but all I have to marshal against the hordes clamouring for immediate victory is a knowledge of human nature and how to undermine it. If you take that away, if you tear away my mask, what is left? Just a deer trapped in the headlights and equally vulnerable to khaki chaddi and to green.

On the general argument, I can only happily agree that all that happens is due to the weakness of the 'mark', nothing to do with the skill of the sharp. With far less smugness, I will also, reluctantly, point out that Indian interference and even intent to interfere is so inept that you have only your own weaknesses to fear. I am afraid the difference between what Indian agencies are trying to do during this very late recovery from their neutering* by Manmohan Singh and what is being done to Indian interests in Kashmir is the difference between amateur and professional.

*That this delicate operation can be reversed is yet to be proven.

But when putting one’s point across that is human nature. The ground reality is that while India does carry out its plans against us, their effectiveness is highly dependent upon our own incompetence and mismanagement of socioeconomic conditions of ethnicities and the promotion of religious extremism by the establishment.

Now, you can say we exaggerate one or the other depending upon the scenario but the presence of Indian interference and/or intent to interfere and create mayhem in Pakistan remains.

Do we not try for the same via Kashmir and hope for the same otherwise - yes we do but then dushman kis kaam ke honge ham agar itna bhi na karien?

PS: I note with great satisfaction that only the combination ASROC is left for use.

Dada, your own countrymen admit to India using Afghanistan as a base against Pakistan. I agree that the foreign interference part is quite a tad bit overplayed but India does meddle in our affairs through Afghanistan. Especially in the Balochistan issue.

Balochistan?

Come off it, this about a country that parades Tamilians as Baloch, that has Baloch leaders walking in and out Government of India buildings on camera, according to the persons with possession of the pictures, that provides Baloch leaders with faked passport forms, in order to 'prove' later that we wanted to give ourselves up, and therefore didn't use regular passport forms.

 

[Robbie]

Just a question - I know it will sound odd, to a near-bhakt - why would India want it to be more gratifying and more comprehensive? What is gratifying about a war and people dying? If comprehensive means more harm to your opponent over straightforward defeat, have you wondered if you really want to be seen as a clinically definable sadist and a pervert? Think about it. Did you really mean what you said?

If the trends continue - the gap between how India and Pakistan are headed and building up their country - will only lead to one outcome. Therefore, GoI needs to make sure that they do everything possible to ensure that the Pakistani military towers above all in Pakistan and is the defacto decision-maker.

Far too long have notions of morality, dogma and megalomanic desire to be the next Ashoka been steeped into Indians (and particularly, leaders). This ranges from Nehru to Modi. This ever-present desire of every Indian to show superiority (moral and otherwise) has led to repeatedly indulging in foolish forms of 'magnanimity' only to be punctuated by foolish forms of 'miserliness'. These cultural pulls have been a huge failing and a key reason why India is in the relative state it is.

I eschew notions of morality in statecraft. Nobody died and made me King. If the Government of India, two decades down, decides that Pakistan is a threat and needs to be handled, then they should have *all* the flexibility in deciding what and how - whether be 'clinically sadist', or 'magnanimous' or any other admixture of words - Pakistan should be dealt with. I can only hope that they think clinically.

 

[Joe Shearer]

The way things are going now - the gap between how India and Pakistan are headed and building up their country - will only lead to one outcome if the trends continue. Therefore, GoI needs to make sure that they do everything possible to ensure that the Pakistani military towers above all in Pakistan and is the defacto decision-maker.

Far too long have notions of morality, dogma and megalomanic desire to be the next Ashoka been steeped into Indians (and particularly, leaders). This ranges from Nehru to Modi. This ever-present desire of every Indian to show superiority (moral and otherwise) and 'magnanimity' has been a huge failing and a key reason why India is in the relative state it is.

I eschew notions of morality in statecraft. If the Government of India, two decades down, decides that Pakistan is a threat and needs to be handled, then they should have *all* the flexibility in deciding what and how - whether be 'clinically sadist', or 'magnanimous' or any other admixture of words.

I totally disagree with this Bismarckian view of the world as Realpolitik.

It is not about 'show' of superiority - the choice of words itself is a dead giveaway - it is about being moral, not seeming to be moral. Morality is a gain by itself, and not a means to an end.

In your last para, you have come right back to the dilemma I posed - why should a threat being handled be handled to the last point of pain, rather than to the extent necessary to 'handle the threat'?

And who said anything about magnanimity? I talked about satisficing.

 

[notorious_eagle]

That depends. Pakistan started the process of using non-state actors and terrorists against India. It thought it could force India without using conventional means. Now, India has only responded to Pakistan, not initiated this process. India will not cease any activity until Pakistan does.

Not true, not true at all. India started the process of supporting non-state actors in the face of Mukti Bahini and LTTE. In fact, India is the only country in South Asia to overtly intervene in the domestic affairs of another country (Maldives and Sri Lanka) in the form of military intervention. Lets keep our selective bias in check here please.

Despite spending enormous sums? Defeating Pakistan? If defeating Pakistan was an objective of the State of India, the country would at least match, if not exceed, how much Pakistan spends on a percentage basis to ensure relative maintenance of military power gap. India spends less than Pakistan does as a percentage of its budget and GDP. Significantly less.

India has spent enormous sums in the last 20 years. India has been the number 1 importer of foreign weapons. Despite continuous efforts to gain advantage on the battlefield, India has failed because Pakistan has always countered India's acquisitions. TBH, Pakistan and India roughly spend the same as a (%) of their GDP for defence needs. The addition money that Pakistan spends is due to the WOT and Pakistan's extremely incompetent policy of joining the WOT.

By corollary, India spends more on its developmental needs. The goal is to improve the economy and skill the people. India is on the way for that. Pakistan, for better or worse, does not affect India much either positively or negatively though, due to historical reasons, generates more passion. Either way, I don't see anything changing going forward.

To be honest, both countries need to move forward economically as majority of our populations live below the poverty line. The poverty figures in India and Pakistan are simply astonishing and quite embarrassing to be honest. I would be more then happy if both countries curtail their defense spending and invest more money in human capital.

 

[Robbie]

I totally disagree with this Bismarckian view of the world as Realpolitik.

It is not about 'show' of superiority - the choice of words itself is a dead giveaway - it is about being moral, not seeming to be moral. Morality is a gain by itself, and not a means to an end.

In your last para, you have come right back to the dilemma I posed - why should a threat being handled be handled to the last point of pain, rather than to the extent necessary to 'handle the threat'?

And who said anything about magnanimity? I talked about satisficing.

To avoid the possibility that what might appear to be satisficing in the present may not be so in the future. It is this very approach that has led to past leaders letting go of opportunities because they believed they had reached the minimal level necessary only for the problems and the ensuing cycle to restart in the future.

On an off note - This attitude of satisficing is almost a cultural attribute of India raised Indians. No job is completed to the end with perfection and diligence while catering to future needs. The minimal necessary effort is put in with optimism that 'things will work out'.

It is this behaviour that I abhor.

 

[notorious_eagle]

Balochistan?

Come off it, this about a country that parades Tamilians as Baloch, that has Baloch leaders walking in and out Government of India buildings on camera, according to the persons with possession of the pictures, that provides Baloch leaders with faked passport forms, in order to 'prove' later that we wanted to give ourselves up, and therefore didn't use regular passport forms.

Sir

Here you go. Dilshad Baloch, he lives in New Delhi. He is the lowest form of scum. He murdered doctors and engineers in Balochistan because their crime was that they were born in Punjab. If you would like, i can also post pictures of Harbyar Marri (another low life scum) who visits New Delhi quite often.

 

[Cliftonite]

Sir

Here you go. Dilshad Baloch, he lives in New Delhi. He is the lowest form of scum. He murdered doctors and engineers in Balochistan because their crime was that they were born in Punjab. If you would like, i can also post pictures of Harbyar Marri (another low life scum) who visits New Delhi quite often.

Exactly. I was about to show him this but I didn't have the energy to type it out. I mean one would have to be blind to think India does not have its hands in the Balochistan issue. Mama Qadeer ring a bell anyone? Brahamdagh Bugti, Hyrbayar Marri maybe? All under Indian media patronage.

 

[Yankee-stani]

Exactly. I was about to show him this but I didn't have the energy to type it out. I mean one would have to be blind or really fricking stupid to think India does not have its hands in the Balochistan issue. Mama Qadeer ring a bell anyone? Brahamdagh Bugti, Hyrbayar Marri maybe? All under Indian media patronage.

Well one thing good out of this crisis I dont think India will be backing Balochi Proxies as much since China might wanna expand CPEC funding and security but its on our court for us to counter those groups

 

[Cliftonite]

Well one thing good out of this crisis I dont think India will be backing Balochi Proxies as much since China might wanna expand CPEC funding and security but its on our court for us to counter those groups

India got the message when we turned the tables on them in Afghanistan. Ab Twitter pe trend karane do, their days of meddling in our western front are gone.

 

[Yankee-stani]

India got the message when we turned the tables on them in Afghanistan. Ab Twitter pe trend karane do, their days of meddling in our western front are gone.

Now its up to our Babus to finally invest resources and security in that region

 

[Robbie]

Not true, not true at all. India started the process of supporting non-state actors in the face of Mukti Bahini and LTTE. In fact, India is the only country in South Asia to overtly intervene in the domestic affairs of another country (Maldives and Sri Lanka) in the form of military intervention. Lets keep our selective bias in check here please.

I think you and I have had this discussion before. You conveniently discount Pakistan using non-state actors to Kashmir in 1947. I don't.

Your preferred history might start with Muktis, mine starts right at 1947.

India has spent enormous sums in the last 20 years. India has been the number 1 importer of foreign weapons. Despite continuous efforts to gain advantage on the battlefield, India has failed because Pakistan has always countered India's acquisitions. TBH, Pakistan and India roughly spend the same as a (%) of their GDP for defence needs. The addition money that Pakistan spends is due to the WOT and Pakistan's extremely incompetent policy of joining the WOT.

What matters is the defence budget and the relative one at that. 'Number one importer' is a good sound byte but means nothing as, in reality, it's just a manifestation of the failure of domestic industry.

You are also incorrect that India and Pakistan spend roughly the same as a % of their GDP for defense needs even before the WoT. Pakistan has been grossly outspending India as a % of defence budget for many decades.

Please take a moment to look through the SIPRI defence database to clear any misconceptions. Pakistan spent 6.8% of its GDP in 1988 while India spent 3.7%. We can go over all the historical data if you want.

Source: https://www.sipri.org/sites/default...ountries from 1988–2019 as a share of GDP.pdf

Once again, the primary objective or raison d'etre of India has not been to defeat Pakistan. There is no 'shah rag' that India needs. If that was the case, India would match or exceed what Pakistan spends to maintain or increase the military gap, not let it decrease.

To be honest, both countries need to move forward economically as majority of our populations live below the poverty line. The poverty figures in India and Pakistan are simply astonishing and quite embarrassing to be honest. I would be more then happy if both countries curtail their defense spending and invest more money in human capital.

I cannot speak for Pakistan as I am neither a citizen nor related to Pakistan. I can speak for India that moving forward economically is the primary agenda. However, India's defence expenditure as a %, is already one of the lower ones in the world and threat to India is from China. So defense expenditure can not be lowered regardless of what Pakistan does.

India does need to dramatically increase its skilling/educational and infrastructural capacity. Those are the biggest impediments to growth right now.