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Pakistan, Bharat, British India - What came first, what came after?

You can trust a Mallu's insight. They are mostly right. It's their beastly cynicism that kills them; sometimes their excessive analysis. Use his insights and work your Golti backside off, and you will get to the top. Make a small contribution to PDF when you make your first crore.

Cynicism I can understand, but excessive analysis? That is not often with them.

Cynicism and excessive analysis = finance auditor. Mallus will be do well as auditors right.

Between I saw the same behaviour with Bengalis too. (even more than mallus)
 
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Cynicism I can understand, but excessive analysis? That is not often with them.

Cynicism and excessive analysis = finance auditor. Mallus will be do well as auditors right.

Between I saw the same behaviour with Bengalis too. (even more than mallus)

Bengalis tend to get nothing done.
 
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Atanz, you have put forward a pretty good reply. Let me quote the parts that seem to capture the essence of what you are saying -

If each of those European countries, with some having less differances than pair of twins can jealosly uphold their own unique identity yet at the same time be part of a larger whole why can't you guy's accept Pakistan in the same way?

... WE ACCEPT THAT WE ARE ALSO PART OF THE BROADER SOUTH ASIAN IDENTITY. ...

The problem happens is if you say we belong to India, my blunt answer is no because today India refers to a political state that does not occupy the entire region. ...

Had our neigbour been called Bharat we could have lived with composte being called India. But because today that name only covers one state in the region we will refuse be part of a grouping called India. We are South Asian. We are not India. If we agree to the latter that is unfair to us and gives India a unfair advantage just because of a name.

Thats what I meant by nomenclature. Was IVC, is Pakistan part of a greater realm/cultural area? YES.

Is that India? NO. NO.

Is it part of SOUTH ASIA. Yes sir.

Again I will say NO we do not want the name India. Please read this carefully if you are going to reply.

Let us step back a little and consider how we got here -

Since ancient times, the South Asian region has had a civilizational identity. The natives called the region "Bharat", and the term "India" was used in ancient Greek maps to refer to the entire region.

The regions of Punjab, Sindh and Bengal were certainly, in those ancient times, a part of Bharat/India. But in 1947 half of Punjab, half of Bengal, and the whole of Sindh joined a new political entity, Pakistan.

I welcome your statement that you are happy to be a part of the broader civilizational identity that you would prefer to call South Asian rather than Indian.

But all is not well, it seems. To identify the root of the problem, it is instructive to consider the case of Nepal. Nepal is also a nation that is included in this broader South Asian/Indic civilization, but is politically separate from India. So in that sense its situation is analogous to that of Pakistan. Yet they suffer none of the angst that afflicts some Pakistanis. Why is that?

The answer, imho, is that Nepalis are happy to acknowledge, without discomfort, this broader South Asian/Indic civilizational identity.

Whereas in the case of Pakistan, the Islamization process has resulted in a degree of hostility to the ancestral cultural identity. A free embrace of the South Asian/Indic civilizational identity would conflict with the newly acquired Islamic identity.

So what is the solution?

One can hope that over time, Pakistanis would become as comfortable with their ancestral civilization as Nepalis are today.
 
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Atanz, you have put forward a pretty good reply. Let me quote the parts that seem to capture the essence of what you are saying -



Let us step back a little and consider how we got here -

Since ancient times, the South Asian region has had a civilizational identity. The natives called the region "Bharat", and the term "India" was used in ancient Greek maps to refer to the entire region.

The regions of Punjab, Sindh and Bengal were certainly, in those ancient times, a part of Bharat/India. But in 1947 half of Punjab, half of Bengal, and the whole of Sindh joined a new political entity, Pakistan.

I welcome your statement that you are happy to be a part of the broader civilizational identity that you would prefer to call South Asian rather than Indian.

But all is not well, it seems. To identify the root of the problem, it is instructive to consider the case of Nepal. Nepal is also a nation that is included in this broader South Asian/Indic civilization, but is politically separate from India. So in that sense its situation is analogous to that of Pakistan. Yet they suffer none of the angst that afflicts some Pakistanis. Why is that?

The answer, imho, is that they are happy to acknowledge, without discomfort, this broader South Asian/Indic civilizational identity.

Whereas in the case of Pakistan, the Islamization process has resulted in a degree hostility to the ancestral cultural identity. A free embrace of the South Asian/Indic civilizational identity would conflict with the newly acquired Islamic identity.

So what is the solution?

One can hope that over time, Pakistanis would become as comfortable with their ancestral civilization as Nepalis are today.

Or, for that matter, Sri Lankans.
 
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It seems that our Nepalese friends are also concerned at the indian attempt to appropriate their culture and history.

 
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It seems that our Nepalese friends are also concerned at the indian attempt to appropriate their culture and history.

That is just a childish squabble over bragging rights.

My point is different. The Nepalese have no problem in fully and freely embracing their ancestral heritage. For Pakistan that would create a conflict, since the nation was born from the rejection of the pre-conversion Dharmic heritage (i.e. two nation theory).
 
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That is just a childish squabble over bragging rights.

My point is different. The Nepalese have no problem in fully and freely embracing their ancestral heritage. For Pakistan that would create a conflict, since the nation was born from the rejection of the pre-conversion Dharmic heritage (i.e. two nation theory).

Pakistani identity is secure, we know what we are, and who we are.
 
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A question arose in another thread thats quite interesting. Which is did Pakistan get partitioned from India? I noticed the majority view amongst the Indian's was their country 'India' was carved up..

I absolutely reject this contention. My view is that a territory was divided into two states from British India which is not the exact same entity as today's Indian Union.
I stated in my previous argument that at the heart of this fallacy is that it was not 'India' as in the present Indian Union that was divided in 1947 and that this misunderstanding rests in the nomenclature. This untruth has been peddled since 1947 and today it's almost accepted as a given.

My argument is subtle but the result if I can prove my contention is profound. We in Pakistan don't have to sit like some new upshot in the shadow of a mature, established state to our east. We can look at our neighbour in the eye as a equal.

First of all I would suggest we sort out the nomenclature issue, which is and has been the cause of this misunderstanding in South Asia and the world. I will give numbered points for ease of discussion and referance.

1. Today we have two nation states, Islamic Republic of Pakistan and Republic of India. To avoid the nomenclature mixup I will henceforth refer to the Republic of India as Bharat and of course Republic of Pakistan as simply Pakistan.

2. Prior to 1947 there was no nation state ( I stress this point ) in the sub continent There existed a territory acquired by a foreign power, piece by piece through hook and crook and driven by imperial greed.

3. This foreign power had over time taken over almost a entire region ( a geographic defintion ) called India.

4. This label 'India' had been around in various forms since antiquity. It had derived from the Sanskrit Sindhu for the river Indus. The Greeks had used label 'India' and it's meaning would have been the land adjacent to Indus River. That is the Sindh Province, today in Pakistan.

5. Over time this very restricted meaning or understanding of the word 'India' extended eastwards until almost the entire geographic region we call South Asia today came be known as India. Therefore the term India was synonymous with the region we call today South Asia.

6. Thus not only was the term India synonymous with todays South Asia much like other geographic regional names in use today like Iberia, Scandinavia, Balkans, Maghreb or Indochina.

7. Maghreb as a region has been known as such for over a millenia, as has Scandinavia but Libya or Finland are recent 'inventions'. If Finland decided to appropriate the regional geographic name Scandinavia for itself it would not then mean that this nation state now going as the Scandinavian Republic has been around since antiquity.

8. Also just because it ( Finland ) had appropriated a geograhic regional name for itself it would not mean that it could claim everything within that region, that is the entire history of that region as its own. That would be tantamount to intellectual fraud. That is exactly what Bharat has been doing since 1947. It is almost bordering on identity fraud.

9. Now lets go to before 1947. We had a British colony. It's borders were drawn arbitrarily and represented the maximum extent of British power, Had the British been weaker, those borders would have been less extent. Had they been even stronger those borders would have been even more extent.

10. That British colony existed within a region, we would call that South Asia today but then it was known as India ( like Scandinavia etc ) thus this colony was titled 'British India'. Today's Pakistan or Bharat share the exactly the same relationship to British India. The only advantage Bharat has gained is because it also chose the style 'India' which happened to to share the same nomenclature with the British Colonial entity and before that the geograhic region.

11. In a strange twist of history a name 'India' that had meant just the land adjacent to River Indus, came over time to mean the entire region we call South Asia and now in a total leap of disconnect it has come to refer to a nation state called Bharat. The disconnect being that it originally just meant a area in today's Pakistan and now has come to mean a area that is a total disconnect from the original land ( which is in todays Pakistan ) , to what is today Bharat ( which is well to east of the original meaning ). This can 'identity theft' today can throw up all sort of strange situations as I shall point out later.

12. Indian independance Act 1947:-

(1)As from the fifteenth day of August, nineteen hundred and forty-seven, two independent Dominions shall be set up in India, to be known respectively as India and Pakistan.

(2)The said Dominions are hereafter in this Act referred to as “the new Dominions”, and the said fifteenth day of August is hereafter in this Act referred to as “the appointed day”.

2.—(1) Subject to the provisions of subsection (3) (4) of this section, the territories of India shall be the territories under the sovereignty of His Majesty which, immediately before the appointed day, were included in British India except the territories which, under subsection (2) of this section, are to be the territories of Pakistan.

13. We can adduce certain facts from the above Act.

(i) That there existed a British Colony known variously as 'British India' or just plain 'India' ran by a London appointed official called a Viceroy which was part and parcel of the British Empire.

(ii) That this adminstrative structure would cease to exist in 1947 and in it's place two nation states shall come into existance viz Republic of Pakistan and Bharat Republic.

(iii) That the territory adminstered by the said structure would be apportioned out betwen both nation states.

(iv) That as a function of decribing the precise apportionment it states that Bharat shall be British India minus Pakistan.

(v) That when you cut something you slice the smaller piece from the bigger, not slice the bigger piece from smaller. The language of the act just follows that function.

(vi) We cannot use the fact that the term India is being used because that only proves my contention, that is it goes back to the heart of what I have been saying, namely the nomenclature. That is why I am using the term Bharat to prove my point. Both Republics, Pakistan and Bharat if I may draw the analogy just plain wines.

(vii) Whereas the impression given is Pakistan is some new immature wine lacking any pedigree whereas Bharat is some vintage Champagne thats been cultivated for centuries.

14. The truth is both Republics are modern creations dating from 1947. Both are as vintage or lack of as much as each other. The nomenclature is just a dupe, a gloss that obfuscates the reality. Just because Bharat decides to appropriate the name 'India' unto itself does not mean that it suddenly becomes a vintage wine as much as a cheap wine does not become a true Chamapagne just because it labels itself as such.

15. A point was made that Bharat is indeed the sole successor to British India. That is absurd notion. It indeed was a successor state to British India but so was Pakistan.

16. How else would the assets that belonged to British India get divided to both Bharat and and Pakistan? Why and how did the territory held by British India be apportioned to both with some going to Pakistan and some to Bharat if the former was also not also a succerssor state?

17. Contention was made that Bharat the is the sole successor state by stating that United Nations seat held by British India was given to Bharat contrary to Pakistan's efforts.

18. Well the person who made this point (16) should know that not all things can be apportioned. If a father left a horse as inheritance to two sons, they could not divide it into two. By the same logic you cannot apportion a seat. Only one party can have it.

19. If my father left a club membership to me and my brother we very well could not both demand it, when there would only be one. Clearly we would have to resolve the matter by some other means, perhaps the older one getting it. In the instance of the UN seat Bharat gets it because clearly it was the largest piece out of the defunct British India.

So gentleman ( ladies ) I put it to you that this is all about nomenclature. I have avoided the term India to prove my point. We all know that Bharat has used that label and continues to use it, although as a nation state, it is as young as Pakistan. But by using the name India it as gained a historical link goin back to 5,000 years.

Could people please do me enormous favour, please only contribute to this thread if you can add something for or against based on the points made, preferably reasioned out. Lets keep this focussed.


I partially agree with you......... pakistan very well shares the same legacy india does.... but bro back in 1947 thinking of pakistanis was not like urs.... at that time pakistanis were more than happy to be called pakistanis.... but i sense some identity crisis now.... i very well agree that sanskrit, vedas , aryan race is very much a part of pakistan as it is part of india... i know u want to share the cedit of vedas etc..... but the reality is you must be a part of aryan race but u are not a part of aryan culture anymore... and world will continue to regard sanskrit as INDO-EUROPEAN language and not PAKISTANI-EUROPEAN languages, inspite of the fact that pakistanis are also aryans.... sometimes i think if pakistanis had realised this in 1947 partition wont had happened... I KNOW BRO EVEN U ARE A SECRET ADMIRER OF BHARTIYA CULTURE LIKE THE WEST WORLD... and bro this will surely piss u off but in past .... INDIA was identified as an area beyond indus where the people followed the customs or traditions somewhat similar inspite of many small kingdoms in this geographical area of india.... and these traditions are now practised only in india.... but its heartening for me sooner or later u all are beginning to realise ur indian connect.... this can surely lay the foundation of india- pakistan unity.
 
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I am for now going to ignore Veer whatever. I think I might be losing sight of my tail so I intend soon to consolidate and present my closing remarks.

I need to make clear this is not some silly attempt on my part to grab the name 'India' for Pakistan. I think I must have made that clear 100s of time by now. The name 'India' today belongs to Bharat. I am saying we are not going to stand by and allow Bharat to uses the name 'India' as a pretext to claim everything within the sub-continent.

The name India prior to 1947 referred to a entire sub-continent but today within that space there are at least five republics out of which only one is Republic of India. If we continue to use India to refer to the sub-continent at one level and at another level to mean the Indian Republic we can create all sort of misunderstanding. Of course everything and anything within the Republic of India is and belongs exclusively to India. I for sure don't expect to make a claim on Taj Mahal for example. I have no idea whether Muslims or Hindu's built it. What I do know is I doubt it was anybody from within what is Pakistan today who contributed in building that marvel.

Yes, the name India was synonymous with South Asia before 1947 but today you have the Republic of India so please do not use that name anymore for the entire region. I think that is a simple proposition to make and I think I am justified in making that. In the same way that India has exclusive right to everything within her border we ask in equal measure that you extend that right to our republic, Pakistan. That is our primary level of existance and we accept that at a secondary level we are also part of a wider region, South Asia and at a tertiery level the Islamic world. That is why we can't ignore our western neigbours who have also have had profound effect on our history, our culture, our language and even our genetic pool.

I don't think acceptance of of duel influence on us, west and east is wrong or illogical. Pakistan sits on a fracture zone. In terms of physical geography - The crumble zone between the Indian plate and Asian plate runs through centre of Pakistan, sadly cause of so many earthquakes. In historical terms you will find at differant times Pakistan was the easternmost part of western based empires. As the easternmost satrapy of Persian Empire, the Greek Kingdoms, the Kushan Empire etc or the western side of Ganges based empires like Maurya.

Being betwixt two worlds has given us a very turbulent history as our lands were subjected to continous invasions from the west. It was our lands that took the brunt of attacks from the west. Sadly we still suffer this problem on our western border today. Living on a fracture zone has given us lot of trouble.

The nation building project commenced in Pakistan in the same year as India, in 1947. We were both raw uncooked states. We both faced considerable difficulties, indeed I would argue India faced more. For a starters where we had 4 or 5 major ethnic groups, India had dozens, some of them very distant. Our's were physically very proximate to each other.

Over the preceding centuries there had been, as would be expected lot of intercourse between the provinces of Indus Valley/Pakistan. As an example there are probably half as many Sindhi's with Baloch backgrounds as in Balochistan proper and Pashtun make half of Balochistan. Between Punjab and Frontier you have Chach area around Attock where Hindko speakers are found. The same Punjabi. Pashtun mix is seen in the Hazara region where OBL was found recently. This appears to be mixing zone betwen Pashtun and the Punjabi's over the centuries. I won't bother going into the large numbers of Kashmiri's who settled in Punjab over the centuries. In fact they form a significant group within Punjabi commerce. Nawaz Sharif belongs to this category.

Yet the project in Pakistan has ran aground. The blueprint in Pakistan should have to take into account the facts on the ground. So it should have been a narrative spun around Indus Valley and it's continous drama of 5,000 years with a dose of Islam thrown in. The use of religion in 1947 should have been looked as contingency of the moment to get what you want, period.

Identity is a complex, multifaceted idea not a one dimensional strand. Sadly that is exactly what was done and for 63 years we have been drumming one facet, Islam into everybody. The state has been rather successful with this effort, only the results have been rather unintended and today we are harvesting them. We have made our pople not into citizens of Pakistan, no sir. Instead we have made them citizens of the Ummah.

To be continued.
 
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...... Continued.

*In the previous post I stated the four main groups in Pakistan as Pashtun, Punjabi, Baloch, Sindhi, I realise there are more for example the Indian migrants ( Mohajir's ) but for sake of simplicity and that those four make some 92% of the country I excluded others.

So instead of letting the Pashtun, Sindhi, Baloch and Punjabi feel proud of their identity and at the same time subsuming that under the Indus Valley narrative - In that all these communities have lived in proximate to the Indus Valley in Pakistan we tried to take that way and instead introduce a one faceted sterile nationalism based around Islam. The framers of this idea never considered to think that if this Islamic identity was comprehensive then there would be no Pakistan. Every single Muslim country from the Atlantic west, Morrocco all 3,000 miles and dozens countries to Pakistan on the east would be one nation, one country. How preposterous.

Even the 1971 rupture did not awake our leadership, instead they increased the dosage even more. Well we know what that led to. A member in these forums perfectly epitomozed the distress we are in by stating in another thread "I would help Saudia Arabia even if my house [Pakistan] was on fire". Sadly this is a sentiment that is often found in Pakistan. There are at least 30 Arab countries in the world, not one was prepared to give refuge to another Arab, OBL because you would be buying American wrath. In Pakistan clearly there were people who were more then prepared to do their bit for the Ummah, so what if their house burn down.

Abdul Qadeer Khan of the nuclear bazaar one level did not do anything wrong which is why he still has strong support within the country. He was just a being a pious Muslim. All AQK did was to "help fellow brothers from the Ummah to withstand the infidels" and why not make a few dollars whilst your pleasing Allah? The fact that he risked Pakistan from being wiped off from the map which is what would have happened if one of his fellow Ummah brothers had managed to develop a nuclear device and god forbid used it against a western target. Pakistan would have been toasted in retaliation. This man put the lives of 180 million Pakistani's at risk but he is a hero in Pakistan. Perverse. But then as I said some here have said they would let their house burn to help the Ummah and sadly this is a common sentiment in Pakistan. There is a thread here by somebozo about the ummah that tackles this phenomenon.

This is what we have built up. I would like to look at how we ended up at this sorry state in another thread. Had we gone in for a proud Pashtun's, Punjabi's, Baloch and Sindh's making these four Muslim groups equal in a synthesised Indus Valley whole branded as Pakistan I have no doubt we would have succeeded by now.

I recall stories of Tipu Sultan. This chap no doubt did lot opf heroics against the British but he was not friom anywhere near the present day Pakistan. Mysore is probably over a thousand miles from Pakistan. So what gives with Tipu? Because he was a Muslim, a member of ummah. But wait if that is your model what stops Muslim heroes from Tataristan,Morocco, Indonesia, Mauritania being included. If you follow the Muslim line you can't then apply secular dividers in place. This is why Pakistan today is a international schizoid nutcase today. Ummah or Pakistan? Pakistan or Unmmah?

My view is rest of the Muslim's are making use of the schizoid. When sh*t happens we are the ummah brothers. When sharing the fruit on the table then it is we are Saudi, Kuwaiti, Omani and you are Pakistani so go way. I am not blaming the 'ummah brothers' but trying to awake Pakistani's to this curse. I remember as a young kid nobody ever my managed to give a satisfactory question to something that bothered me. If Pakistan was a Muslim homeland in theory could all billion Muslim's move to Pakistan? I was never convinced by the 'Muslims of sub continent' thing because there is contradiction in that statement. If you invoke Islam then you can't restrict it with secular division of humanity and 'sub continent' is not a religious Islamic construct but a temporal man made idea. This inherant contradiction created a dynamic and that is biting us in the posterior today.

To be continued .......
 
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