AUSTERLITZ
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Well u wanted to share a 'personal view' so i asked u for ur personal opinion on both emigrations.
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I am neither Hindu nor Muslim. But I have grown up with a very strong sense of nationalism. And cultural affinity, debt of gratitude, and deep rooted ties to the land of my forefathers.
Neither my grandfather (I did not get to know my paternal grandfather), nor my father, nor me, can see the logic of partition.
And all three of us have very strong views on it.
Its dimmed in my son's generation. I don't know what the scene is at your end.
Austerlitz: The senior man around here, Joe-S has advised that I was tad harsh on you. So in respect of his wishes I take back that comment I made about you.
And why are you guy's still flogging the Dravidian thing? Now this is getting tedious, so hear loud and clear. It is possible that the original ethnic group in the Indus Valley was Dravidian. I can't discount that possibility and neither can you prove that. You can read views of the late Prof. Ahmad Hassan Dhani. So there are two views on this and I do not think both can be reconciled until either they find DNA sample or they manage to read the tablets found at the ruins.
But I think at end of the day it is irrelevant because if indeed the Dravidians were there than it would mean the present people in Sindh - Punjab, Pakistan had forefathers who were Dravidian's. What is so profound about that, if indeed that is the case?
And yes, I am aware about the Brahui of Balochistan, a people linked to Dravidians.
Raja Chola: So you would rather have me think I am stupid? Great.
What am supposed to look out for on the coins? A stamp at the back which says ' Made by a Hindu'?
Correct me but the bull is found all over South Asia so what would be so shocking about it's use in symbols?. As a example the eagle is found all over the world. It is a symbol in use by US, by the German's, some Arab countries. Point taken? Many cultures can use the same symbol.
And can youplease find out what a valley is? Then can you also find out what a catchment area is. Could you possibly then explain how is Lothal in the Indus Valley?
The question faced by several new age pakistanis is -"How to proudly claim ancient hindu heritage while distancing themselves from evil hindus?"..After all,logic is for sissies..
I agree, with a slightly different placement of emphasis.
The challenge is to accept Hindu heritage without being swayed by evil Hindus, i.e. the extremist fringe of Hinduism. The challenge is to associate Hinduism (and its history) with the moderate Hindus, not the rabid Hindutva fringe.
For the record - In India, there was no concept of warfare for imposition of belief systems.
The process of Islamization resulted in a loss (to a varying degree) of ancestral cultural identity, and the taking up of a newly imagined identity.
Brother, very very few of you even make the delineation.
A fringe by its very definition is an outnumbered minority.
You do not need to create a different nation to escape that.
Developreo let me make one thing clear, i have no problem with Pakistani's claiming the Indic heritage along with Muslim tradition as their own. However ur voice is a minority, majority take pride in the Arabic tradition heck i even seen people here linking their family to some Arab general and say that they have nothing whatsoever to do with Indian heritage.
They talk as if they were in control of low life hindus for centuries till the british came. If ghanznis and ghoris and bin kasims are reveled in by these people how do u think they would accept this age old culture?? It will be a big task for u to convince them than convincing me an Indian.
Military conquests, for whatever reason, are invariably followed by missionary legions.
There was sufficient concern pre-1947 that this fringe would be influential enough to substantially affect the life of Muslims, hence the need for Pakistan. Now you can debate whether the fear was justified or overblown but, at this point, it hardly matters.
Even if they were the ones who consider themselves (and actually are) descended from invaders who came to destroy exactly that empire?
The difference in culture is despite the attempt to enforce uniformity by Islam, not because of Islam.
Pakistan is not about location at all. It's location is just an accident.
Pakistan is about an idea and that idea brooks no such "appreciation".
I must bring Islam into the discussion
I don't want to get into the history Islam; there have been enough threads about that and people have debated these claims, along with comparative analyses of other religions, including Hinduism.
The issue here is about Pakistan and its ancient history, so let's stick to that.
Because technically Developer, as a nation, Pakistan has no other history but that of an Islamic state.
Well, technically, the Republic of India also has no history before 1947.
However, the lands comprising said political entities, and the ancestors of people living in these entities, were party to various events which constitute the ancient history.
Your guys' contention is that we cannot claim that history unless we have a spiritual connection with those events and people; we reject that claim as an invalid prerequisite. We gave examples of Brits, Swedes, Spaniards, Egyptians, Iranians, etc. where your criteria do not match.
Well, technically, the Republic of India also has no history before 1947. However, the lands comprising said political entities, and the ancestors of people living in these entities, were party to various events which constitute the ancient history.
Your guys' contention is that we cannot claim that history unless we have a spiritual connection with those events and people; we reject that claim as an invalid prerequisite. We gave examples of Brits, Swedes, Spaniards, Egyptians, Iranians, etc. where your criteria do not match.
What you call a 'loss', we call 'transformation'. There is nothing 'imagined' about our identity: we are Muslims from a land with a long history of civilization. Some aspects of that ancient linkage we retain in our rituals, and our spiritual view is shaped by the Islamic identity.