'Pakistan at disadvantage to maintain military balance'

[Keysersoze]

cant wait btw i admire how you post everything in a sequential order, replying one thing after another!! I cant do it for the love of my life LOL!

Actually i meant in a Military sense lol

I will be posted (as in a military sense) abroad. I will no longer be just a internet warrior lol

 

[Contrarian]

dude, atleast post a reply to my really huge post i made earlier before going..!!
I was very interested in this thread!!

 

[Keysersoze]

Agreed, then i should say i really am relieved, i thought Pakistan was waiting to order some Typhoons in response to MRCA! thank god its J-10!

Now Key, you do realise, that the current J-10's are said to be very close to the F-16 blk 40. It is a new a/c and thus has a huge potential to grow, but at present its capabilities are near that. Now the MRCA will be even superior to the Su-30MKI, do you think that J-10 can in a one on one, match the MRCA ie the MiG 35MKI?? It would be far below the Su-30MKI, forget the MRCA...

Let us forget the argument that they will not be delivered on Pakistan's required time schedule. Let just compare numbers and the technology.


Yes, it is, and its final flight is to be before 2009, that is its deadline. This is not ADA that it will take 20 years to make a plane. I think the deadline will be more than met. Its safe to say, T-50 will start getting inducted before 2015.


Yes, but the news you have posted is old news. The Kauvery issue is over, the engine is not ready, thus the american F-404IN20 engine will be used. This engine is the highest development of the F-404 engine family till date. Its the very best available in the series and has 20% more thrust than the F-404. Tejas is already ordered for 1 squadron, more will follow.

Tejas has at present more than 35% composites, it is planned to have 45%, do you realise how important this is? Do you realise how little the RCS of the LCA would be? It would be a damn stealthy plane.


I agree for the JF-17, till the time Pakistan atleast says officially that they are in negotiations, i think its safe to say , we leave J-10 till then.
Now onto JF-17, you are aware of the problem of engines in that. I would not say that JF-17 are in production for Pakistan as yet.


The loiter time, the sensors, the range, of Phalcon far exceed the Eri-eye, its quite like the same difference between a medium and a heavy fighter plane.
Also Eri-eye will have around 7 workstations or 10 will PAF really stuffs it, Phalcon will have 24 workstations easy. You realise the importance of workstations? They directly effect the performance of the AWAC, from the number of intercepts, etc, etc being carried out. Phalcon is out of the league of Eri-eye.


Neither am I, but apparently the development is going well, however it is pointless to comment on it.



Actually its a CONFIRMED 230 Su-30MKI planes.So lets see again:
70-80 f-16
150 jf-17
40-50 (J-10 or equivalent)
7-Erieye
3-hawkeye2000

Vs
Su-30MKI -230
MRCA-126
Mirage 2005-50
Mig29smt-65
LCA-50
Phalcon-3-6

And if you really are putting J-10 in it, then i would add LCA too, atleast 50 planes will be operational by 2015.

Now every plane on the Indian side is technologically superior to the plane Pakistan has to counter it. Think about it, every single plane in IAF is superior to its counterpart in PAF. Even look at LCA, on PAPER(bear in mind, this is paper, and it may be differnt when its operational) is superior to the JF-17.

MiG 35 will be superior to even the Su-30MKI, MiG 35 is a f*cking BEAST, and PAF does not have anything to counter even the Su-30MKI, the nearest being F-16 blk 52.

MiG 35 will have AESA, etc, etc, the whole works dude, you know about it, it will be India's TOP OF THE LINE fighter plane. Pakistan is yet to get something to counter the Su-30MKI.

You know that to counter superior numbers, one must have superior technology. But PAF does not have either numbers or technology. Every single plane in IAF is superior to what the PAF will field against it, and in more numbers. How do you think PAF will hold out??

And imagine, by 2015, when there will be decent numbers of MiG 35MKI, then T-50 will also start getting inducted. Does this give you any idea of IAF plans??
First they get Su-30MKI, then within so short a time, they are getting a plane superior to that, the MiG 35MKI, and then again in a very short time, they will start getting the T-50. By 2015, the situation for PAF will be very bad. Oh and i forgot, by 2015, there will be the LCA too to match the JF-17.


In the event of a war mate, most of the a/c being diverted to the Northern and North Western front, with only a token force remaining in the rest of the country! Every other plane will be on forward base ready to attack. This argument is a no-go, this is true in peace time, when the concentration of planes will be low in any single area. But in war time, the only place from where there can be an invasion is the west, every plane will be there, PAF will not be able to enter at all in India, whereas there would be MASSIVE and i mean MASSIVE numbers of planes going from India for ops in Pakistan.

Ok Malay just for you I will go through this post.......

Right regarding the J-10 vs the Su30 debate......
Now I don't know where you got the BLk 40 idea from, but Even if it were true you are forgetting Pak's penchant for using western avionics in Chinese aircraft.(there have been rumours regarding a american radar for both the J-10 The J-10 has (according to a few sources on a sino forum) so far outperformed China's Su-30's and J-11b's in A2A approx 11-0 so far(before you kick off about that bear in mind that the F-22 scored 111-0 against the f-15)
The MKI's radar advantage would be made a moot point by the AWACS whereas it's greater RCS would mean it would be detected sooner.
R-77 missile....or Amraamski will be going up against the AIM120... Now I have done a little bit of searching on various sites and forums regarding this. Whilst the MAXIMUM range of the R-77 and the AIM120 are very similar the EFFECTIVE ranges are different.......
So what am I saying.....all you need to counter the MKI is a AWACS and a good BVR missile so it looks like any of the PAK aircraft carrying a BVR missile linked to a AWACS and with HMS and HOBS. Hey I guess the JF-17 can do it!!! The J-10 (or alternative) will hve an initial buy of about 2 sqaudrons but will be reinforced as was hinted at by the ACM in the interview posted somewhere on here.

Okay regarding the PAK-FA.....I am dubious as to the claims it will be in service...even advanced nations will take a few years to develop something and I think the timeline you have envisaged is somewhat optimistic.

Speaking of Optimistic........the LCA. I am starting to wonder if TEJAS is Sanskrit for "under development" To be honest I believe that the IAF has lost confidence in the plane (even if you haven't) 20 planes is at best a token buy. When PAK went through the whole JF-17 deal they did not order small amounts, They ordered the number required. The LCA may have been the greatest plane of the last 15 years. but by the time it gets into service it will need more money to be upgraded yet again. I have a feeling the additional MKI deals are gonna reduce the LCA buy to token aircraft only. the engine buy you mention was only 24 units......

Ok I am going to post a article regarding awacs in my next post........

I haven't been able to post in as much detail as I would like as I am busy packing for my mountain climbing trip .

 

[Keysersoze]

India & Pakistan AEW Options

Unfortunately, since the partition of the old Imperial India into India and Pakistan, the two countries have been either at war, recovering from war or at peace but with both sides preparing for the next war and sadly there seems little likelihood that this cycle will be broken in the near future.
Beriev A-50 Mainstay

In Apr 00 Russia caused consternation in Pakistan when they detached two Russian Beriev A-50 Mainstay AEW aircraft to operate from an Indian Air Force base, during a lengthy demonstration of AEW capabilities to Indian Air Force personnel. Although both India and Pakistan have long recognised the benefits of operating an AWACS aircraft, cost and more importantly, actual availability always mitigated against either country being the first to actually operate these ‘force-multipliers’. America, aware of how easily an ‘AEW Race’ could be started, always rebuffed any attempt by the countries to purchase either the E-2C Hawkeye or the E-3A Sentry. Russia initially appeared more willing to allow India to upset the military balance in the area by offering them the Beriev A-50 Mainstay. However, the deal fell through, either because Russia was unwilling to agree to the ‘technology transfer’ necessary to allow the IAF to operate and maintain the aircraft or because Russia wanted too high a price for what India perceived as essentially a first generation AEW system and one that was markedly inferior to either American aircraft.
IAI Phalcon

Consequently, on 11 Aug 03 it was something of a surprise when the US State Department announced that it had no objections to the sale of the Phalcon system to India. Following detailed negotiations, on 5 Mar 04 the Indian Ministry of Defence and Israeli Aircraft Industries (IAI) finally signed a deal worth up to $1.1 billion for the supply of three Phalcon AEW systems installed on Il-76MD Candid aircraft. The US agreeing to the sale of the Phalcon system was a surprise because in the past, other than the sale of one Phalcon equipped 707 to Chile, America has blocked Israeli ambitions to sell the Phalcon system elsewhere – most notably China. As production of the Il-76MD Candid aircraft ceased some time ago, the 3 Indian aircraft are expected to be sourced from the Tashkent factory in Uzbekistan, where a number of surplus incomplete airframes are available for disposal. The airframes will be flown from Tashkent to the Irkut Corporation facility at Irkutsk, where, along with some structural modifications, they will be completed and more powerful Aviadvigatel PS-90A will replace the standard D-30KP-2 turbofans. Then the completed aircraft will be flown to the IAI factory in Israel for the installation of the Phalcon radar system.
IAI Stratus Aerostat

The exact specification of the Indian Phalcon system is unknown, but it has certainly been developed considerably from the version sold to Chile in 1994. Whether the Indian Air Force will be supplied with the ‘full-strength’ Phalcon, equipped with a phased-array radar, phased-array IFF, ESM/ELINT and CSM/COMINT, which functions as a sophisticated intelligence gathering, as well as AEW aircraft, remains to be seen. The Phalcon system is believed to be capable of tracking up to 60 targets at ranges between 435-500 miles, giving the Indian Air Force the ability to survey large areas of Pakistan from within Indian airspace. Currently, the first aircraft is scheduled to be delivered in Dec 07, followed by the second nine months later and the last aircraft around Apr 09. Israel has also agreed to supply India with high-resolution pictures from its Ofeq-5 photo-reconnaissance satellite of the Kashmir region and the line of control area between India and Pakistan. Finally, in 2003, Israel sold India a number of Aerostat balloons, equipped with phased array radars that are permanently deployed along the border with Pakistan.

India has also decided to spend $400 million reviving its indigenous AEW system. This project was cancelled in 1999 when their HS-748 test platform crashed after the rotordome collapsed into the fuselage and then fell off – the crash killed the three crew and five of the key project scientist’s who were also on board. Rather than attempt another rotordome mounted radar, this time the Indian Electronics and Radar Development Establishment (LRDE) will try and develop a smaller electronic phased-array radar, that can be mounted on the top of the fuselage of a small business jet, similar to the Ericsson PS-890 Erieye radar that currently equips the SAAB Argus AEW&C and Embraer EMB-145SA. Other unconfirmed reports indicate that India has already ordered five Embraer EMB-145 aircraft from Brazil for $200 million on which to mount the radar.

SAAB 2000

However, given events in India, Pakistan has quickly responded to its own lack of an effective AEW&C aircraft. Currently Pakistan is negotiating with SAAB to acquire six Erieye equipped SAAB 2000 AEW&C aircraft. Talks on the financial and technical aspects of the contract are continuing, but agreement in principle has already been established, although the exact timescales have yet to be announced. The Swedish Argus AEW&C was based on the SAAB 340 which went out of production in 1999. Consequently, for Pakistan the Erieye radar will be mounted on the larger, but very similar SAAB 2000 airframe – integrating the Erieye radar system should be fairly straightforward in this larger airframe. Pakistan considered ordering the Embraer EMB-145SA, but decided that, as well as being more expensive, the aircraft lacked the necessary altitude performance to cope with the hot & high conditions in Pakistan.

Powered by two Allison/Rolls-Royce AE2100 engines, the SAAB 2000 can remain airborne for nine hours at 30,000ft, a significant improvement on the GE-CT7-98 powered SAAB 340 Argus. Although the SAAB 2000 also went out of production in 1999, SAAB has sufficient aircraft in its inventory to complete this order. Sweden is also considering replacing the SAAB 340 Argus with the SAAB 2000 Erieye system, as the larger internal volume of this airframe allows for the installation of additional control consoles and communications equipment – allowing the aircraft to be employed as a much more effective airborne command & control post.

Over the last 30 years, many countries have attempted to develop indigenous AEW radar and their associated systems – until the arrival of the Erieye and Phalcon systems, only the USA and USSR really succeeded. Given the financial and technical difficulties involved in developing an indigenous AEW&C capability, Pakistan's decision appears well founded and in the long term may well result in a much more cost-effective and capable system than the recent decision in India may eventually deliver - only time will tell.

 

[vnomad]

Ok Malay just for you I will go through this post.......

Right regarding the J-10 vs the Su30 debate......
The J-10 has (according to a few sources on a sino forum) so far outperformed China's Su-30's and J-11b's in A2A approx 11-0 so far(before you kick off about that bear in mind that the F-22 scored 111-0 against the f-15)

I believe that was the Su-27 that was beaten by the J-10. And the Su-30MKI is leagues ahead of the Su-27.

Now I don't know where you got the BLk 40 idea from, but Even if it were true you are forgetting Pak's penchant for using western avionics in Chinese aircraft.(there have been rumours regarding a american radar for both the J-10

Until the rumours are backed with facts - . Will the American's allow the integration of an American radar with a Chinese aircraft? I have my doubts. An AESA? Definitely not. As far as AESA's go Pakistan has only one option AFAIK - China. The only others who can deliver one are the Israelis, Russians and Europeans. A CAESAR or AMSAR on the J-10? Again - unlikely.

So what am I saying.....all you need to counter the MKI is a AWACS and a good BVR missile so it looks like any of the PAK aircraft carrying a BVR missile linked to a AWACS and with HMS and HOBS. Hey I guess the JF-17 can do it!!! The J-10 (or alternative) will hve an initial buy of about 2 sqaudrons but will be reinforced as was hinted at by the ACM in the interview posted somewhere on here.

Can the Eyerie guide a missile from the JF-17 or J-10? I'm not very sure about that. Will the JF-17/J-10 use a L-band radar?

Okay regarding the PAK-FA.....I am dubious as to the claims it will be in service...even advanced nations will take a few years to develop something and I think the timeline you have envisaged is somewhat optimistic.

As long as its better than the Jxx and comes out before, there shouldn't be a problem.

The LCA may have been the greatest plane of the last 15 years. but by the time it gets into service it will need more money to be upgraded yet again. The engine buy you mention was only 24 units......

More money to be upgraded? Can you point out the technical deficiencies in the Tejas? The engine buy was only 24 units because buying a huge number makes no sense. The immediate requirement is only of 8 engines for the pre-production LCAs. The Kaveri will come online sooner or later. The GE-404 is only a stop gap arrangement.

I haven't been able to post in as much detail as I would like as I am busy packing for my mountain climbing trip .

Enjoy yourself. Pack in a parachute, just in case.

 

[Bull]

And if I can't use the J-10 then you can't use the MRCA as there is no order placed there yet either

fair enough

28 Mig 29K, 230 MKIs + 20 LCA AND 52 F-16 blk 52 and 200 JF-17.

 

[Bull]

SO lets take another look
70-80 f-16
150 jf-17
40-50 (J-10 or equivalent)
7-Erieye
3-hawkeye2000

Vs
MKI -180-190
MRCA-126
Mirage 2005-50
Mig29smt-65
Phalcon-3-6

What about 162 Jaguars in service, what about the existing 49 Mirages 2K, what about the existing 57 Mig 29, what about the 42 new Mig 29Ks for the IN, what about the exisiting 18 Sea HArriers ????


If you think even after spending so much on defence we cant maintain a edge over Pakisdtan, we really have to be dumbheads.

 

[Contrarian]

Ok Malay just for you I will go through this post.......

Right regarding the J-10 vs the Su30 debate......
Now I don't know where you got the BLk 40 idea from, but Even if it were true you are forgetting Pak's penchant for using western avionics in Chinese aircraft.(there have been rumours regarding a american radar for both the J-10 The J-10 has (according to a few sources on a sino forum) so far outperformed China's Su-30's and J-11b's in A2A approx 11-0 so far(before you kick off about that bear in mind that the F-22 scored 111-0 against the f-15)

Actually FYI, what China's statement was that it outperformed a Chinese 3rd generation jet, now in Chinese parliance 3rd gen is actually 4th generation. But the planes were Su-27, if China has any other 4th generation plane even below the Su 27, then it would be that plane.

Also bear in mind that Su-30 and Su-30MKI is head and shoulders above Su-27. There is an actual structural difference, TVC etc, etc Its JUST not comparable. Its almost a different plane. And to top it off, it was a Chinese Su-27 or something lower, that means very bad avionics.

The MKI's radar advantage would be made a moot point by the AWACS whereas it's greater RCS would mean it would be detected sooner.
R-77 missile....or Amraamski will be going up against the AIM120... Now I have done a little bit of searching on various sites and forums regarding this. Whilst the MAXIMUM range of the R-77 and the AIM120 are very similar the EFFECTIVE ranges are different.......

What about manouverability, etc, etc, etc.
Even China is not going to be using J-10 as its frontline fighter mate, why is every one from Pakistan thinking J-10 is a magic plane? J-10 is inferior to the F-16's that Pakistan is getting, and even they cannot challenge an MKI one for one in battle, how can the J-10 then do that? China got Su-30MKK as their top of the line fighters, and its going to remain that way.

So what am I saying.....all you need to counter the MKI is a AWACS and a good BVR missile so it looks like any of the PAK aircraft carrying a BVR missile linked to a AWACS and with HMS and HOBS. Hey I guess the JF-17 can do it!!!

there are many other things, Eri-eye cannot guide any missiles, etc, etc.

The J-10 (or alternative) will hve an initial buy of about 2 sqaudrons but will be reinforced as was hinted at by the ACM in the interview posted somewhere on here.

LOL. LCA also has an 'initial' buy of 2 squadrons.

Okay regarding the PAK-FA.....I am dubious as to the claims it will be in service...even advanced nations will take a few years to develop something and I think the timeline you have envisaged is somewhat optimistic.

Actually, its not that since India just jumped on the 5th generation bandwagon that means its development has just started. T-50 is already well on its way, there has already been a TD for the PAK-FA, its in its final stages of design, the T-50. Russia has been at it for a LONG time, it will have its first flight before 2009.

Speaking of Optimistic........the LCA. I am starting to wonder if TEJAS is Sanskrit for "under development" To be honest I believe that the IAF has lost confidence in the plane (even if you haven't) 20 planes is at best a token buy. When PAK went through the whole JF-17 deal they did not order small amounts, They ordered the number required. The LCA may have been the greatest plane of the last 15 years. but by the time it gets into service it will need more money to be upgraded yet again. I have a feeling the additional MKI deals are gonna reduce the LCA buy to token aircraft only. the engine buy you mention was only 24 units......

Yeah, the MKI is a hell of a plane but tell me, what is actually the flaw in Tejas. On paper, it has one of the BEST specs. It will be inducted, and it willbe inducted in quantity, only time is required. Like i said earlier, i confirmed from AI too, that around 150 Tejas will be acquired finally.

Ok I am going to post a article regarding awacs in my next post........

I read it, and now let me inform you, the Phalcon that India bought, is the 'full strength' Phalcon. Do you have any doubts as to how good the Phalcon is? One of the best AWACS in existance right now. Eri-eye like i said is NO match for it.
Pakistan's decision has been as it always is : cost effective. It bought the best bang for buck. India bought the best there is. There is a quantum difference in that. Surely Eri-eye gives the best value for money, and goes with Pakistan's policy of MINIMUM detterence, but like i said, Phalcon is one of the best.

I haven't been able to post in as much detail as I would like as I am busy packing for my mountain climbing trip .[/QUOTE]

 

[EagleEyes]

fair enough

28 Mig 29K, 230 MKIs + 20 LCA AND 52 F-16 blk 52 and 200 JF-17.

Its 150 JF-17s and 95 F-16s. 20 LCA?

What about MKIs i thought they were too expensive to maintain and their delivery was canceled, no wonder the IAF was happy with the 40 immediate Su-30MKI delivery.

 

[Adux]

What about 162 Jaguars in service, what about the existing 49 Mirages 2K, what about the existing 57 Mig 29, what about the 42 new Mig 29Ks for the IN, what about the exisiting 18 Sea HArriers ????


If you think even after spending so much on defence we cant maintain a edge over Pakisdtan, we really have to be dumbheads.

Where did the 42 Mig 29K come up from, i thought it was 16 and a option for another 30 More

 

[Bull]

Its 150 JF-17s and 95 F-16s. 20 LCA?

Yeah 20 LCAs, dont tell me you dont know about it. You included the upgraded ones too to get to figure of 95 F-16s right. Ok fair enough. So the total is 245.

But thats againts 230MKI +42 Mig 29Ks+162 Jaguars+49 Mirage2K+57Mig29+18 Sea harriers.Thats a total of 558.

245 Vs 558..has anything changed?

What about MKIs i thought they were too expensive to maintain and their delivery was canceled,

 

[Contrarian]

Bull, dude has summat happened to you? You look all agitated and stuff? Relax man...

 

[Bull]

Bull, dude has summat happened to you? You look all agitated and stuff? Relax man...

i edited that post...

 

[Adux]

Webby That is the Indian MKI production line

 

[Adux]