Pakistan Army's VT-4 Main Battle Tank | Updates & Discussions

[tanlixiang28776]

All this VT-4 trash talking. It will be quite hilarious if the Pakistan Army chooses it anyway.

 

[Signalian]

Desert conditions are difficult on tanks. M1's issue in gulf wars was more the dust disrupting the turbine's performance. Not so much the gun. They can wrap seals around the muzzle.

the trials conducted in pakistan showed gun problems.

 

[serenity]

U don't know what type 10 tanks armour is made of. So don't look down upon your enemy.

Modern ERA is effective against APFSDS. A tank below 50 ton can resist M3 round is for sure.

Plus: I thought we are not big mouth Indians, so don't need to bluff

There's some obvious confusion here. I'm not saying Type 10 is bad, quite the contrary. I'm saying that using the example of Type 10 to make the case for Oplot is bad. It is fallacious reasoning. Dazzler responded to my skepticism that a 40 something tonne tank can defeat M3 round from which is the latest sabot developed by the Americans particularly to defeat the latest Russian armour (with focus on defeating the latest ERA and penetrating through thickest section of turret). He says that Type 10 is well protected (it is) and Type 10 is 40 something tonnes, therefore Oplot being similar weight can be as well protected (it can indeed) but we know that Type 10 is over $8M USD for JSDF and Oplot is a fraction of that. If Oplot utilises ultra high tensile steels as part of the composite armour makeup along with expensive ceramics armour plates, it can indeed be similarly well protected as Type 10. All of this are big assumptions and then the bigger assumption on top of all this is that Type 10 and Oplot by association, can withstand M3 sabot rounds. No information on this but I'm skeptical Type 10 can 100% withstand M3 APFSDS. Maybe Oplot can with Duplet but let's not forget that M3 is designed with the aim to defeat ERA like Duplet, Relikt, and maybe even Malachit. So yes 40 tonne tanks can be well protected (semantics) but if 60+ tanks can be destroyed by primitively armed and trained, 40 tonne tanks are easy work no matter what they are and what they pretend to be.

the trials conducted in pakistan showed gun problems.

I thought you were referring to M1 all this time. Can you provide sources to VT-4 trials in Pakistan? Why did Pakistan ever buy a single Al Khalid (whatever the Chinese base product is) if engine and gun are both crap. They can't be more crap now than the original Type 90s or whatever they were called. I hope Pakistan doesn't buy VT-4, it'll hint to me that the purchases they do make like Type 054A frigates, missiles, and others are decent and Pakistan does properly evaluate purchases and only make purchases of decent equipment. Personally I think Chinese tanks are far less competitive than their peers because tanks haven't been an area of priority for modernisation in a long time. It stands to reason that many things are outdated or underperform on Chinese tanks owing to this fact and the PLA's continued use of the old Soviet style cannon fodder doctrine of superior numbers (at least all this does apply to Type 96 and lesser tanks in PLA, Type 99 is unknown but seems to favour western doctrine). It will be interesting to see which tank Pakistan goes for. Was Altay considered? or rejected because of budget considerations? In this weight and cost class, Pakistan pretty much only has the choice of VT-4, T-80 variants, and T-72 variants (including T-90S but not MS due to costs). Oplot does seem to stand out along with VT-4 at least on paper. T-72 variants are if anything less capable and no more reliable. T-90 is better than T-72 but also costs more. No point purchasing T-72 when Pakistan has AK anyway. Oplot is also pretty unreliable even when not tested to extremes as shown in major failures in Strong Europe competitions in the last few years, especially this year's iirc. T-90 could be a decent option but cost and India has them as well and in greater numbers. They will know the T-90 more intimately and understand its weaknesses more than PA when PA gets through training with them. So realistically VT-4 or Oplot in this market. To us without confidential trial information that so many members say they have access to, out of these two Oplot has publicly showed problems with reliability more than VT-4. That's not to say VT-4 is better! But it is what it is to otherwise ignorant observers. PA will know better and make the right decision.

 

[帅的一匹]

There's some obvious confusion here. I'm not saying Type 10 is bad, quite the contrary. I'm saying that using the example of Type 10 to make the case for Oplot is bad. It is fallacious reasoning. Dazzler responded to my skepticism that a 40 something tonne tank can defeat M3 round from which is the latest sabot developed by the Americans particularly to defeat the latest Russian armour (with focus on defeating the latest ERA and penetrating through thickest section of turret). He says that Type 10 is well protected (it is) and Type 10 is 40 something tonnes, therefore Oplot being similar weight can be as well protected (it can indeed) but we know that Type 10 is over $8M USD for JSDF and Oplot is a fraction of that. If Oplot utilises ultra high tensile steels as part of the composite armour makeup along with expensive ceramics armour plates, it can indeed be similarly well protected as Type 10. All of this are big assumptions and then the bigger assumption on top of all this is that Type 10 and Oplot by association, can withstand M3 sabot rounds. No information on this but I'm skeptical Type 10 can 100% withstand M3 APFSDS. Maybe Oplot can with Duplet but let's not forget that M3 is designed with the aim to defeat ERA like Duplet, Relikt, and maybe even Malachit. So yes 40 tonne tanks can be well protected (semantics) but if 60+ tanks can be destroyed by primitively armed and trained, 40 tonne tanks are easy work no matter what they are and what they pretend to be.



I thought you were referring to M1 all this time. Can you provide sources to VT-4 trials in Pakistan? Why did Pakistan ever buy a single Al Khalid (whatever the Chinese base product is) if engine and gun are both crap. They can't be more crap now than the original Type 90s or whatever they were called. I hope Pakistan doesn't buy VT-4, it'll hint to me that the purchases they do make like Type 054A frigates, missiles, and others are decent and Pakistan does properly evaluate purchases and only make purchases of decent equipment. Personally I think Chinese tanks are far less competitive than their peers because tanks haven't been an area of priority for modernisation in a long time. It stands to reason that many things are outdated or underperform on Chinese tanks owing to this fact and the PLA's continued use of the old Soviet style cannon fodder doctrine of superior numbers (at least all this does apply to Type 96 and lesser tanks in PLA, Type 99 is unknown but seems to favour western doctrine). It will be interesting to see which tank Pakistan goes for. Was Altay considered? or rejected because of budget considerations? In this weight and cost class, Pakistan pretty much only has the choice of VT-4, T-80 variants, and T-72 variants (including T-90S but not MS due to costs). Oplot does seem to stand out along with VT-4 at least on paper. T-72 variants are if anything less capable and no more reliable. T-90 is better than T-72 but also costs more. No point purchasing T-72 when Pakistan has AK anyway. Oplot is also pretty unreliable even when not tested to extremes as shown in major failures in Strong Europe competitions in the last few years, especially this year's iirc. T-90 could be a decent option but cost and India has them as well and in greater numbers. They will know the T-90 more intimately and understand its weaknesses more than PA when PA gets through training with them. So realistically VT-4 or Oplot in this market. To us without confidential trial information that so many members say they have access to, out of these two Oplot has publicly showed problems with reliability more than VT-4. That's not to say VT-4 is better! But it is what it is to otherwise ignorant observers. PA will know better and make the right decision.

Type 99A2 is very very very expensive.

Maybe Ukraine promised to give some sort of Tot to Pakistan, who knows.....
Pakistan need a new engine so they can export tanks to friendly nations. They see Vt4 as potential competitor than something they really want. The current test of Vt4 in Pakistan, in my eyes, is just a walk through to pay respect.

教会徒弟，饿死师傅。

 

[Rocky rock]

AK2

 

[Lone Ranger]

AK2View attachment 490807

***AK-I

 

[LeGenD]

@serenity

Pakistan Army doesn't disclose much about these trials at official capacity. You have little choice but to take the word of certain members at face value. Their are nuggets of truth in them because no MBT is perfect.

In the case of M1 Abrams, an export variant was trialed in a sector of Bahawalpur in 1988 and it reportedly performed poorly. It might not be M1A1* but original M1 because it was equipped with the older 105 mm M68A1 rifled gun. You won't find much information about this trial on the web however. It is possible that this unit/variant was not optimized for combat operations in harsh desert conditions at the time.

When US Army and Marines were dispatched to Saudi Arabia for Operation Desert Storm in 1991, US troops installed an air filter on the engine of each M1A1 Abrams to address the issue of 'sand ingestion' in harsh desert conditions and this solution worked. More advanced PJAC air filter emerged in the same year [1] which enabled any M1 Abrams variant to traverse huge swaths of a desert without the need to stop for maintenance checks on a frequent basis. US continued to improve M1A1 Abrams with new components and capabilities over time and the latest variant in service is M1A2 SEPv3 [designed to meet challenges of the near future]. Battlefield experiences are valuable teachers in short.

IMO, an MBT should be repeatedly trialed to achieve a higher understanding of its qualities. Repeat trials also make it possible for the provider to address potential shortcomings in its product with appropriate value additions as per the suggestions of the customer. Procurement of an MBT should not be rushed because this is an expensive endeavor. Nevertheless, an argument is that Pakistan Army does not have the logistics capability to support a heavy MBT (> 60 tons in weight). Therefore, Western options might not be on the cards for now.

I do not have much to say about Chinese VT-4. Pakistan Army should thoroughly test both Chinese Type-99A and Russian T-90S in order to make a more informed decision, if possible. Procure few but something good.

---

*M1A1 (and above) feature 120 mm M256 Smoothbore gun which is globally renowned for its stabilization mechanism, accuracy and ability to shoot a variety of rounds. During Operation Desert Storm in 1991, scores of M1A1 Abrams struck Iraqi tanks from over 2000 KM without any issue while on the move. Existing variants can do much better.

[1] Produced by Donaldson. FYI: http://www.emea.donaldson.com/en/aircraft/support/datalibrary/071714.pdf

 

[Dazzler]

All this VT-4 trash talking. It will be quite hilarious if the Pakistan Army chooses it anyway.

No body trash talked VT 4, but rather some performance shortfalls were mentioned. Remember, the first step to accept a product is to have its flaws identified, and then removed to suit customer needs. That's a universal practice and is standard around the globe.

Some of you get so offended when a flaw is mentioned in some Chinese product which sounds rather childish.

 

[帅的一匹]

No body trash talked VT 4, but rather some performance shortfalls were mentioned. Remember, the first step to accept a product is to have its flaws identified, and then removed to suit customer needs. That's a universal practice and is standard around the globe.

Some of you get so offended when a flaw is mentioned in some Chinese product which sounds rather childish.

you guys are quite picky

 

[Hu Yao]

There's some obvious confusion here. I'm not saying Type 10 is bad, quite the contrary. I'm saying that using the example of Type 10 to make the case for Oplot is bad. It is fallacious reasoning. Dazzler responded to my skepticism that a 40 something tonne tank can defeat M3 round from which is the latest sabot developed by the Americans particularly to defeat the latest Russian armour (with focus on defeating the latest ERA and penetrating through thickest section of turret). He says that Type 10 is well protected (it is) and Type 10 is 40 something tonnes, therefore Oplot being similar weight can be as well protected (it can indeed) but we know that Type 10 is over $8M USD for JSDF and Oplot is a fraction of that. If Oplot utilises ultra high tensile steels as part of the composite armour makeup along with expensive ceramics armour plates, it can indeed be similarly well protected as Type 10. All of this are big assumptions and then the bigger assumption on top of all this is that Type 10 and Oplot by association, can withstand M3 sabot rounds. No information on this but I'm skeptical Type 10 can 100% withstand M3 APFSDS. Maybe Oplot can with Duplet but let's not forget that M3 is designed with the aim to defeat ERA like Duplet, Relikt, and maybe even Malachit. So yes 40 tonne tanks can be well protected (semantics) but if 60+ tanks can be destroyed by primitively armed and trained, 40 tonne tanks are easy work no matter what they are and what they pretend to be.

M3 is designed to defeat Kontakt-5 not relikt and other modern ERAs. We are in year 2018 not 1998 sir!

M1 abrams is not M1A1 it's M1A2SepV3, T-80 is not T-80 1976 they are T-84 or t-80BVM. Don't look down upon them.



I thought you were referring to M1 all this time. Can you provide sources to VT-4 trials in Pakistan? Why did Pakistan ever buy a single Al Khalid (whatever the Chinese base product is) if engine and gun are both crap. They can't be more crap now than the original Type 90s or whatever they were called. I hope Pakistan doesn't buy VT-4, it'll hint to me that the purchases they do make like Type 054A frigates, missiles, and others are decent and Pakistan does properly evaluate purchases and only make purchases of decent equipment. Personally I think Chinese tanks are far less competitive than their peers because tanks haven't been an area of priority for modernisation in a long time. It stands to reason that many things are outdated or underperform on Chinese tanks owing to this fact and the PLA's continued use of the old Soviet style cannon fodder doctrine of superior numbers (at least all this does apply to Type 96 and lesser tanks in PLA, Type 99 is unknown but seems to favour western doctrine). It will be interesting to see which tank Pakistan goes for. Was Altay considered? or rejected because of budget considerations? In this weight and cost class, Pakistan pretty much only has the choice of VT-4, T-80 variants, and T-72 variants (including T-90S but not MS due to costs). Oplot does seem to stand out along with VT-4 at least on paper. T-72 variants are if anything less capable and no more reliable. T-90 is better than T-72 but also costs more. No point purchasing T-72 when Pakistan has AK anyway. Oplot is also pretty unreliable even when not tested to extremes as shown in major failures in Strong Europe competitions in the last few years, especially this year's iirc. T-90 could be a decent option but cost and India has them as well and in greater numbers. They will know the T-90 more intimately and understand its weaknesses more than PA when PA gets through training with them. So realistically VT-4 or Oplot in this market. To us without confidential trial information that so many members say they have access to, out of these two Oplot has publicly showed problems with reliability more than VT-4. That's not to say VT-4 is better! But it is what it is to otherwise ignorant observers. PA will know better and make the right decision.

 

[帅的一匹]

but recent there is a statement issued.by NORINCO calls for fair treatment to VT4 in competition, why is that?

No body trash talked VT 4, but rather some performance shortfalls were mentioned. Remember, the first step to accept a product is to have its flaws identified, and then removed to suit customer needs. That's a universal practice and is standard around the globe.

Some of you get so offended when a flaw is mentioned in some Chinese product which sounds rather childish.

its not.about get offended, its about you.dont have proof to back your claim.

Not everything you tell, is bound to be true.

going for T84 oplot is a predetermined result before the trial started, cut and dried. VT4 is just a passer by. its like waste out time and resource.

 

[Beast]

No body trash talked VT 4, but rather some performance shortfalls were mentioned. Remember, the first step to accept a product is to have its flaws identified, and then removed to suit customer needs. That's a universal practice and is standard around the globe.

Some of you get so offended when a flaw is mentioned in some Chinese product which sounds rather childish.

Like somebody faking a recovery snorkelling test video which claim as defect? I am absolutely comfortable accepting a true report of VT-4 trial problem with solid proof.

But spreading lies and hearsay are another thing. It is a fact they are too many VT-4 haters bend to badmouth this tank.

 

[LKJ86]

Like somebody faking a recovery snorkelling test video which claim as defect? I am absolutely comfortable accepting a true report of VT-4 trial problem with solid proof.

But spreading lies and hearsay are another thing. It is a fact they are too many VT-4 haters bend to badmouth this tank.

Agree!
Someone even confused VT-4 with other tanks.

Engine failure, being dragged by ARV during field trials..

View attachment 490378 View attachment 490379 View attachment 490380

It is pretty clear that it is MBT 3000 aka VT4

 

[Dazzler]

but recent there is a statement issued.by NORINCO calls for fair treatment to VT4 in competition, why is that?


its not.about get offended, its about you.dont have proof to back your claim.

you are not God or Allah that whatever you tell is.bound to be true.

going for T84 oplot is a predetermined result before the trial started, cut and dried. VT4 is just a passer by. its like waste out time and resource.

Post reported for dragging religion totally out of context for no reason at all. As i said, such trials are based on pragmatic testing, not some baseless nationalistic behavior but i guess it is too much for you guys to handle.

This is not the first time a chinese mbt struggled here in Pakistan.

Listen, see and learn. The type-85III was tested alongside the t-80ud for stopgap third generation mbt as the development of Alkhalid was delayed due to engine and other issues. The tests took place in 94-95 and eventually the type-85III lost to t-80ud, again, the engine and transmission were main culprits.

The 6td diesel engine was hands down a better option, though it also had problems initially but it ran almost twice as much distance as the Chinese mbt without failing. Though the army had high hopes for type-85III as they were already using the IIAP and were satisfied.

An interesting old video showing the results of the original trials.

 

[帅的一匹]

Post reported for dragging religion totally out of context for no reason at all. As i said, such trials are based on pragmatic testing, not some baseless nationalistic behavior but i guess it is too much for you guys to handle.

This is not the first time a chinese mbt struggled here in Pakistan.

Listen, see and learn. The type-85III was tested alongside the t-80ud for stopgap third generation mbt as the development of Alkhalid was delayed due to engine and other issues. The tests took place in 94-95 and eventually the type-85III lost to t-80ud, again, the engine and transmission were main culprits.

The 6td diesel engine was hands down a better option, though it also had problems initially but it ran almost twice as much distance as the Chinese mbt without failing. Though the army had high hopes for type-85III as they were already using the IIAP and were satisfied.

An interesting old video showing the results of the original trials.

nothing religious here, dont misinterpret here. as i browse at CJDBY, the production cost of AK1 is only 1.8 million USD. I dont think Pakistan will pay 5.8 million per to get VT 4 unless we promise TOT it. oplot is the only option left.

VT 4 is not bad at all, but it may be not cost effective for Pakistan at the moment. thats why i said the bidding result is predetermined.