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Pakistan Army's VT-4 Main Battle Tank | Updates & Discussions

nothing religious here, dont misinterpret here. as i browse at CJDBY, the production cost of AK1 is only 1.8 million USD. I dont think Pakistan will pay 5.8 million per to get VT 4 unless we promise TOT it. oplot is the only option left.

Production cost of Alkhalid as per director of Tank manufacturing factory is $3 million.Who knows what fanboys a CJDBY are smoking these days. Even an average t-72B3 without having proper FCS costs $2 million these days.
 
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Production cost of Alkhalid as per director of Tank manufacturing factory is $3 million.Who knows what fanboys a CJDBY are smoking these days. Even an average t-72B3 without having proper FCS costs $2 million these days.
i think he is talking about the MBT 2000.

as Ak 1 has more foreign parts, cost is higher.
 
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No body trash talked VT 4, but rather some performance shortfalls were mentioned. Remember, the first step to accept a product is to have its flaws identified, and then removed to suit customer needs. That's a universal practice and is standard around the globe.

Some of you get so offended when a flaw is mentioned in some Chinese product which sounds rather childish.

Agree with the first part.

Every Russian on Russian forums gets offended if someone mentions truthful facts about problems, same goes for Pakistanis, same goes for Indians, same goes for Chinese. I however do not find any Chinese member obviously offended and resorting to the usual displays of aggression like other nationalities. We have just rightfully questioned the statements but I suppose readers can either believe it or not, and I've offered my personal belief (probably incorrect) as to why Oplot is unlikely miles ahead in protection because it is so light. The discussion went into direction of Type 10 (owing to its similar weight) but no absolute comparison can be made between 40 tonne tanks and 60 tonne tanks so while Type 10's protection can be great for its weight class, it does not mean it is great overall. Like how a 2.0L inline 4 can produce great horsepower and torque for its weight it does not measure up to a V12 that produces less power and torque curves for its weight but greater overall. I get you are saying that it is not impossible to build a well protected 40 tonne tank because Type 10 is a great example, but I think it is impossible to build one for the price of an Oplot. That's my possibly incorrect judgement but there it is and I was only interested in hearing what you are allowed to possibly reveal... definitely was not offended. Maybe one or two other passing members were. I don't get why they should feel offended either but saying bad things about a Chinese product is like threatening everything else by association even when it is not. Stupid people around the world aren't able to differentiate though. So there lies the friction... at least I suspect.

Tank prices are actually much higher than the ones posted online and it depends a lot on parts, training, support, and maintenance deals. It really varies. The latest leopard 2 purchases netted something like close to $20M USD per tank. Although this is export price and comes with some parts support. AK at $3M is really expensive for what it offers though. I'm surprised armies continue on insisting on tanks even though many terrains just aren't suitable for them.
 
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but recent there is a statement issued.by NORINCO calls for fair treatment to VT4 in competition, why is that?
plz post the statement of NORINCO with link .....

Any detail was mention about the competition ...??
 
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plz post the statement of NORINCO with link .....

Any detail was mention about the competition ...??
If you wanna official statement from NORINCO, no such thing. If you wanna some fan made statement, there are a lot.

Plus, I still don't think you guys should buy VT-4 or T-84. Just put Relikt or some modern ERA and upgrade FCS, your AK tank is good enough. I don't think T-84 or VT-4 have something that AK can't have.

Make in Pakistan, save your dollars for domestic constration. In 1990s PLA is extremely poor too.
 
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but recent there is a statement issued.by NORINCO calls for fair treatment to VT4 in competition, why is that?
plz post the statement of NORINCO with link .....

Any detail was mention about the competition ...??
If you wanna official statement from NORINCO, no such thing. If you wanna some fan made statement, there are a lot.

Plus, I still don't think you guys should buy VT-4 or T-84. Just put Relikt or some modern ERA and upgrade FCS, your AK tank is good enough. I don't think T-84 or VT-4 have something that AK can't have.

Make in Pakistan, save your dollars for domestic constration. In 1990s PLA is extremely poor too.
NORINCO calls for fair treatment to VT-4 in competition indeed.

From NORINCO's official website on May 23, 2018:
http://www.norincogroup.com.cn/art/2018/5/23/art_84_108508.html

推动打造“一带一路”标杆项目,温刚出访巴基斯坦取得重要成果

发布时间:2018-05-23
e2c3015b6648410f9429817ba4f45b3d.png

5月18日-20日,集团公司总经理温刚率团出访巴基斯坦,会见了巴基斯坦陆军总参谋长比拉尔中将及旁遮普省首席部长沙巴兹,调研了橙线项目并慰问驻巴中方员工。

  在会见比拉尔时,比拉尔中将表示,巴陆军十分重视与北方工业集团的合作,在重大军事装备采购中,巴陆军将会进行客观、公正和全面的对比考核评估,希望北方工业集团给予一如既往的支持。温刚表示,中巴友谊源远流长,北方工业集团与巴基斯坦在国防领域的紧密合作是对中巴友谊的深刻践行和诠释。北方工业集团愿意与巴基斯坦朋友分享科技进步的成果,为提升巴基斯坦国防装备水平继续贡献力量。

  在会见沙巴兹时,沙巴兹表示,北方工业集团在轨道交通领域经验丰富,橙线项目执行团队铁总-北方联营体在巴首条地铁项目建设中表现出了极高的专业素质,体现了中国标准、中国速度,希望今后继续与北方工业集团在橙线项目运营和以轨道交通为基础的多领域工程项目方面展开更加全面和多元化的合作。温刚感谢沙巴兹先生对橙线项目给予的大力支持。他表示,拉合尔橙线轨道交通项目是在两国元首见证下签约的中巴经济走廊早期收获项目,北方工业集团有丰富的海外基础设施建设的项目经验,期待双方在基础设施领域开展多维度合作,建设一批有国际影响力的标杆项目。

  随后,温刚到拉合尔轨道交通橙线项目现场,实地查看了项目部分工点,到项目驻地亲切看望慰问了中方员工,听取了联营体项目部工作汇报。温刚对项目的执行情况表示满意,对联营体的合作模式、管理方式和经营理念表示肯定。他强调,橙线项目是在习近平主席亲自见证下,中国北方工业集团与中国铁总合作“走出去”的典范项目,作为巴基斯坦的第一个电气化铁路项目,意义十分重大。目前,项目建设正一步步变成现实,希望联营体再接再厉,加强团队建设和安全工作,在加强业务出海的同时做到党建出海,把党建优势转化为能力优势,将橙线项目建设成中巴经济走廊乃至“一带一路”建设中的标杆项目,为国家“一带一路”建设作出积极贡献。

  集团公司总部有关部门和北方公司主要负责人植玉林、马保勇等随同出访并参加了会见。(北方公司)

Baidu Translate:
On -20 May 18th, Wen Gang, the general manager of the group company, visited Pakistan, met with general chief of staff of the Pakistan army, general Bilal, and Changsha Baz, the chief Ministry of Punjab Province, investigated the orange line project and consoled the Chinese employees in Pakistan.

When meeting with Bilal, lieutenant general Bilal said that the Pakistani army attaches great importance to the cooperation with the northern industrial group. In the procurement of major military equipment, the Pakistani army will carry out an objective, fair and comprehensive assessment and assessment, and hope that the North Industrial Group will give the support as always. Wen Gang said that the friendship between China and Pakistan has a long history. The close cooperation between the Northern Industrial Group and Pakistan in the field of national defense is a profound practice and interpretation of the friendship between China and Pakistan. Northern Industrial Group is willing to share the fruits of scientific and technological progress with Pakistani friends and continue to contribute to the improvement of Pakistani defense equipment.

When meeting with Shabazz, Shabazz said that the northern industrial group was experienced in the field of rail transportation, and the orange line project team, iron general - the North joint body, showed high professional quality in the construction of the subway project, reflecting the Chinese standard and China's speed, hoping to continue with the northern industrial group in the orange line in the future. More comprehensive and diversified cooperation in project operation and multi-field projects based on rail transit. Wen Gang thanked Mr. Shabaz for his strong support for the Orange Line project. He said that the Lahore orange line rail transit project is the early harvest project of the Sino Pakistan Economic Corridor signed by the two heads of state. The north industrial group has rich experience in the construction of overseas infrastructure projects, and expects the two sides to carry out multi-dimensional cooperation in the field of infrastructure and build a number of benchmarks with international influence.

Then, Wen gang went to the site of the orange line project of Lahore rail transit and examined part of the project on the spot. He visited the Chinese staff and listened to the report of the joint project department. Wen Gang expressed his satisfaction with the implementation of the project and affirmed the cooperative mode, management mode and management concept of the consortium. He stressed that the orange line project is a model project of "going out" by China north industrial group and China iron general, as the first electrified railway project in Pakistan, which is of great significance as chairman Xi Jinping personally witnessed. At present, the construction of the project is becoming a reality step by step. We hope that the joint venture will make persistent efforts to build up the team construction and safety work, and make the party build the sea at the same time, and transform the party's construction advantage into the capacity advantage, and build the orange line project into the Benchmarking Project in the China Pakistan Economic Corridor and even the "one way" construction. To make positive contributions to the construction of the country 's "one way and one way".

The relevant departments of the headquarters of the group company and the principal responsible persons of the northern company, such as Zhiyulin and Ma Baoyong, accompanied them to visit and attended the meeting. (North Company)
 
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NORINCO calls for fair treatment to VT-4 in competition indeed.

From NORINCO's official website on May 23, 2018:
http://www.norincogroup.com.cn/art/2018/5/23/art_84_108508.html

推动打造“一带一路”标杆项目,温刚出访巴基斯坦取得重要成果

发布时间:2018-05-23
View attachment 491257
5月18日-20日,集团公司总经理温刚率团出访巴基斯坦,会见了巴基斯坦陆军总参谋长比拉尔中将及旁遮普省首席部长沙巴兹,调研了橙线项目并慰问驻巴中方员工。

  在会见比拉尔时,比拉尔中将表示,巴陆军十分重视与北方工业集团的合作,在重大军事装备采购中,巴陆军将会进行客观、公正和全面的对比考核评估,希望北方工业集团给予一如既往的支持。温刚表示,中巴友谊源远流长,北方工业集团与巴基斯坦在国防领域的紧密合作是对中巴友谊的深刻践行和诠释。北方工业集团愿意与巴基斯坦朋友分享科技进步的成果,为提升巴基斯坦国防装备水平继续贡献力量。

  在会见沙巴兹时,沙巴兹表示,北方工业集团在轨道交通领域经验丰富,橙线项目执行团队铁总-北方联营体在巴首条地铁项目建设中表现出了极高的专业素质,体现了中国标准、中国速度,希望今后继续与北方工业集团在橙线项目运营和以轨道交通为基础的多领域工程项目方面展开更加全面和多元化的合作。温刚感谢沙巴兹先生对橙线项目给予的大力支持。他表示,拉合尔橙线轨道交通项目是在两国元首见证下签约的中巴经济走廊早期收获项目,北方工业集团有丰富的海外基础设施建设的项目经验,期待双方在基础设施领域开展多维度合作,建设一批有国际影响力的标杆项目。

  随后,温刚到拉合尔轨道交通橙线项目现场,实地查看了项目部分工点,到项目驻地亲切看望慰问了中方员工,听取了联营体项目部工作汇报。温刚对项目的执行情况表示满意,对联营体的合作模式、管理方式和经营理念表示肯定。他强调,橙线项目是在习近平主席亲自见证下,中国北方工业集团与中国铁总合作“走出去”的典范项目,作为巴基斯坦的第一个电气化铁路项目,意义十分重大。目前,项目建设正一步步变成现实,希望联营体再接再厉,加强团队建设和安全工作,在加强业务出海的同时做到党建出海,把党建优势转化为能力优势,将橙线项目建设成中巴经济走廊乃至“一带一路”建设中的标杆项目,为国家“一带一路”建设作出积极贡献。

  集团公司总部有关部门和北方公司主要负责人植玉林、马保勇等随同出访并参加了会见。(北方公司)

Baidu Translate:
On -20 May 18th, Wen Gang, the general manager of the group company, visited Pakistan, met with general chief of staff of the Pakistan army, general Bilal, and Changsha Baz, the chief Ministry of Punjab Province, investigated the orange line project and consoled the Chinese employees in Pakistan.

When meeting with Bilal, lieutenant general Bilal said that the Pakistani army attaches great importance to the cooperation with the northern industrial group. In the procurement of major military equipment, the Pakistani army will carry out an objective, fair and comprehensive assessment and assessment, and hope that the North Industrial Group will give the support as always. Wen Gang said that the friendship between China and Pakistan has a long history. The close cooperation between the Northern Industrial Group and Pakistan in the field of national defense is a profound practice and interpretation of the friendship between China and Pakistan. Northern Industrial Group is willing to share the fruits of scientific and technological progress with Pakistani friends and continue to contribute to the improvement of Pakistani defense equipment.

When meeting with Shabazz, Shabazz said that the northern industrial group was experienced in the field of rail transportation, and the orange line project team, iron general - the North joint body, showed high professional quality in the construction of the subway project, reflecting the Chinese standard and China's speed, hoping to continue with the northern industrial group in the orange line in the future. More comprehensive and diversified cooperation in project operation and multi-field projects based on rail transit. Wen Gang thanked Mr. Shabaz for his strong support for the Orange Line project. He said that the Lahore orange line rail transit project is the early harvest project of the Sino Pakistan Economic Corridor signed by the two heads of state. The north industrial group has rich experience in the construction of overseas infrastructure projects, and expects the two sides to carry out multi-dimensional cooperation in the field of infrastructure and build a number of benchmarks with international influence.

Then, Wen gang went to the site of the orange line project of Lahore rail transit and examined part of the project on the spot. He visited the Chinese staff and listened to the report of the joint project department. Wen Gang expressed his satisfaction with the implementation of the project and affirmed the cooperative mode, management mode and management concept of the consortium. He stressed that the orange line project is a model project of "going out" by China north industrial group and China iron general, as the first electrified railway project in Pakistan, which is of great significance as chairman Xi Jinping personally witnessed. At present, the construction of the project is becoming a reality step by step. We hope that the joint venture will make persistent efforts to build up the team construction and safety work, and make the party build the sea at the same time, and transform the party's construction advantage into the capacity advantage, and build the orange line project into the Benchmarking Project in the China Pakistan Economic Corridor and even the "one way" construction. To make positive contributions to the construction of the country 's "one way and one way".

The relevant departments of the headquarters of the group company and the principal responsible persons of the northern company, such as Zhiyulin and Ma Baoyong, accompanied them to visit and attended the meeting. (North Company)

Neever knew general Bilal had become NORINCOs spokesperson. Hope they are paying him well. :rofl:
 
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No engine can survive the test in your desert, even Abram failed as well.


He keep saying Oplot's armour is mile ahead of Vt4's. I don't know why....

Yeah the Abrams failed on several accounts including engine and gun accuracy. There is a long list of mbts that failed in this forsaken desert.
 
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I believe in self reliance. HIT is not getting anything new out of the tests. These mbts dont offer an iota of improvement over Al-Khalid series.
As if you know a lot. In fact, you know nothing.

The only obstacle for VT-4 will be TOT for engine and the price high tag of USD 5.8million per tank.

If you wanna official statement from NORINCO, no such thing. If you wanna some fan made statement, there are a lot.

Plus, I still don't think you guys should buy VT-4 or T-84. Just put Relikt or some modern ERA and upgrade FCS, your AK tank is good enough. I don't think T-84 or VT-4 have something that AK can't have.

Make in Pakistan, save your dollars for domestic constration. In 1990s PLA is extremely poor too.
I suggest you go Google for more of VT-4 info instead of spewing misinfo.

VT-4 and AK are 2 different generation of tank. Their transmission layout is totally different. VT-4 is following modeen western tank layout with gearbox and engine intergrated into single piece for ease of maintenance and repair. While AK , T-90 and oplot t-84 still follow old Russian transmission layout that do not allow engine to be replaced in less than an hour time.

They need half a day time to replace transmission, gearbox before engine able to replaced. This greatly reduced the survival of MBT during battle. There are more to talk about but just this point allow will not allow any amount of upgrade to replace it.
 
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Yeah the Abrams failed on several accounts including engine and gun accuracy. There is a long list of mbts that failed in this forsaken desert.
If conditions are so severe and challenging in this desert, only a custom made for this desert tank will work.
Afraid Pakistan may have to make such a tank themselves.
Cost also may be prohibitive unless tradeoffs are made.
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Upgrading AK will be far better choice for PA than spending billions on purchases that only offer slightly better engines, FCS, and armor. The armor can be upgraded on AK with modular add ones with modern ERA on top, similar to how Type 99 upgraded the wedge shaped ERA frame on Type 98. FCS is more difficult but can't imagine AK FCS being so bad it can't do its job in defending Pakistan. AK is lighter than both Oplot and VT-4 so shouldn't really need a more powerful engine. PA should either go for a much better light tank or just stick with AK upgrades. T-90MS is really the only one I can think of. If they want to venture into heavier territory, Type 99 and Altay are the only considerations available in the 50-60 tonne range. Don't think the other modern alternatives are up for export.
 
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I thought you were referring to M1 all this time. Can you provide sources to VT-4 trials in Pakistan? Why did Pakistan ever buy a single Al Khalid (whatever the Chinese base product is) if engine and gun are both crap. They can't be more crap now than the original Type 90s or whatever they were called. I hope Pakistan doesn't buy VT-4, it'll hint to me that the purchases they do make like Type 054A frigates, missiles, and others are decent and Pakistan does properly evaluate purchases and only make purchases of decent equipment. Personally I think Chinese tanks are far less competitive than their peers because tanks haven't been an area of priority for modernisation in a long time. It stands to reason that many things are outdated or underperform on Chinese tanks owing to this fact and the PLA's continued use of the old Soviet style cannon fodder doctrine of superior numbers (at least all this does apply to Type 96 and lesser tanks in PLA, Type 99 is unknown but seems to favour western doctrine). It will be interesting to see which tank Pakistan goes for. Was Altay considered? or rejected because of budget considerations? In this weight and cost class, Pakistan pretty much only has the choice of VT-4, T-80 variants, and T-72 variants (including T-90S but not MS due to costs). Oplot does seem to stand out along with VT-4 at least on paper. T-72 variants are if anything less capable and no more reliable. T-90 is better than T-72 but also costs more. No point purchasing T-72 when Pakistan has AK anyway. Oplot is also pretty unreliable even when not tested to extremes as shown in major failures in Strong Europe competitions in the last few years, especially this year's iirc. T-90 could be a decent option but cost and India has them as well and in greater numbers. They will know the T-90 more intimately and understand its weaknesses more than PA when PA gets through training with them. So realistically VT-4 or Oplot in this market. To us without confidential trial information that so many members say they have access to, out of these two Oplot has publicly showed problems with reliability more than VT-4. That's not to say VT-4 is better! But it is what it is to otherwise ignorant observers. PA will know better and make the right decision.
Yes i meant M-1 all this time, no other MBT.
I am neither in favour of VT-4 nor against it. same goes for Oplot-M or T-84 or upgraded version of T-80 UD.

My thoughts are hypothetically aligned towards Leo2A6/7, K-2 and Altay. Its hypotheical because PA is not considering any of these.
 
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If conditions are so severe and challenging in this desert, only a custom made for this desert tank will work.
Afraid Pakistan may have to make such a tank themselves.
Cost also may be prohibitive unless tradeoffs are made.
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Thats what they've done with the Al-Khalid.
 
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