Pakistan Army's T-129 ATAK Helicopter Deal | Updates & Discussions.

[araz]

The 10-ton ATAK-2 is named as T-929!!! It's Apachee class combat chopper. Hopefully, Pak goes for it....

You can name it whatever you want but the engine issue needs resolving before the helos become a safe bet to buy. I wish my brothers success in this endeavour but till the issue is resolved no one is going to come to Turkey for buying their products. In many ways the US/West has not allowed Turkey keynote products to retain control. You tried selling a/product and they put the spanners in the works. Turkey Iam sure was aware of the issues and making endeavours to achieve success but the project has matured before the/engine project has and hence the difficulties. Once the engine issue is over and done with and on completion of testing Iam sure Pakistan will be knocking on Turkey's doors.
A

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

You can name it whatever you want but the engine issue needs resolving before the helos become a safe bet to buy. I wish my brothers success in this endeavour but till the issue is resolved no one is going to come to Turkey for buying their products. In many ways the US/West has not allowed Turkey keynote products to retain control. You tried selling a/product and they put the spanners in the works. Turkey Iam sure was aware of the issues and making endeavours to achieve success but the project has matured before the/engine project has and hence the difficulties. Once the engine issue is over and done with and on completion of testing Iam sure Pakistan will be knocking on Turkey's doors.
A

The indigenous engine for Gokbey - utility chopper - is going for the serial production after the certification from the European civil aviation authority. And, the same engine will be used for ATAK-1. A scaled up version will be used for ATAK-2. As for the indigenous chopper engines, it’s a matter of a couple of years...

 

[Successwill]

The 10-ton ATAK-2 is named as T-929!!! It's Apachee class combat chopper. Hopefully, Pak goes for it....

Turkey has a task to deliver 30 T-129 first. 80th Atak is under construction, i hope a few goes to Pakistan.

 

[araz]

The indigenous engine for Gokbey - utility chopper - is going for the serial production after the certification from the European civil aviation authority. And, the same engine will be used for ATAK-1. A scaled up version will be used for ATAK-2. As for the indigenous chopper engines, it’s a matter of a couple of years...

Count your chickens once they hatch, not before. Till the engine gets certified and an uprated version gets developed is a route full of hurdles especially in engine manufacturing. So do not be so confident just yet.
I mean it with the best of intentions. Iam well aware of the Turkish aviation sector and its capabilities. However sub assembly to indegenous engine is a long and arduous route and becoming over confident will lead one to err.
A

 

[MastanKhan]

The indigenous engine for Gokbey - utility chopper - is going for the serial production after the certification from the European civil aviation authority. And, the same engine will be used for ATAK-1. A scaled up version will be used for ATAK-2. As for the indigenous chopper engines, it’s a matter of a couple of years...

Hi,

there is a day and night difference between manufacturing a fighter aircraft engine and an attack helicopter engine.

Fighter aircraft engines are a totally different breed of machines like no other---or maybe like the race car engines---a race car engine that is constantly using maximum rpms and then suddenly goes down in rpm's and then suddenly back to full throttle again---up and won up and down---.

The attack helicopter engine does to go those rigors of flight and change in engine rpm's---.

The engines that operate at steadier rpm's are comparatively easy to manufacture as compared to those whose operationals ranges are between mid range to 110% of power.

So---possibly---the Turks could come with with a viable helicopter engine---.

But the deal of a turkish helicopter was a bad deal right from the gitgo---.

sanctions were obvious right from day one---.

This deal was another sabotage on the integrity of pakistani defences----.

This deal was planned by saboteurs of pakistan---make a deal to please the pakistani public---but defence weapons will never be delivered or be delayed because of known sanctions---stupid pakistanis will never know about it---and pakistan would be hurt in its defences.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Count your chickens once they hatch, not before. Till the engine gets certified and an uprated version gets developed is a route full of hurdles especially in engine manufacturing. So do not be so confident just yet.
I mean it with the best of intentions. Iam well aware of the Turkish aviation sector and its capabilities. However sub assembly to indegenous engine is a long and arduous route and becoming over confident will lead one to err.
A

With the realization of this Turboshaft engine technology we've graduated to the champion's league (Britain, Germany, France etc.) in this sector - Prof. Dr. Faruk Aksit, TEI Chief

We consider it a done deal! After having a PhD from the Reseller Polytechnic Institute and working at GE's turbo-engine group for 10+years, Dr Faruk Aksit (TEI chief) won't let it go if he's not 110% sure of the certification!!! By the by, Turkey has built a state-of-the-art Test Environment to test the jet engines of all sorts....

TEI has investments and business deals with GE. Almost all GE turbo-engines have a noticeable number of movable parts produced by TEI. If the Turkish Defense industry hasn't had this much of intellectual honesty of adhering to their promises they couldn't have destroyed the top-notch Russian systems so proficiently, and nor the West would have applied so much of sanction on them....

*This Fakir has decades of engineering R&D experience working in humble projects. I personally know how tough our bosses are regarding meeting the performance, functionality, reliability etc. specs for they don't want to be fooled at the point of no return

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Hi,

there is a day and night difference between manufacturing a fighter aircraft engine and an attack helicopter engine.

Fighter aircraft engines are a totally different breed of machines like no other---or maybe like the race car engines---a race car engine that is constantly using maximum rpms and then suddenly goes down in rpm's and then suddenly back to full throttle again---up and won up and down---.

The attack helicopter engine does to go those rigors of flight and change in engine rpm's---.

The engines that operate at steadier rpm's are comparatively easy to manufacture as compared to those whose operationals ranges are between mid range to 110% of power.

So---possibly---the Turks could come with with a viable helicopter engine---.

But the deal of a turkish helicopter was a bad deal right from the gitgo---.

sanctions were obvious right from day one---.

This deal was another sabotage on the integrity of pakistani defences----.

This deal was planned by saboteurs of pakistan---make a deal to please the pakistani public---but defence weapons will never be delivered or be delayed because of known sanctions---stupid pakistanis will never know about it---and pakistan would be hurt in its defences.

The "core engine" part is the same for turbo-shaft, turbo-prop and turbo-fan engines! The most important part is to produce single crystal blades from the "powdered" Ni, W etc. to withstand 2,000C+ temp under high pressure conditions for thousands of hours with a very high (six sigma) part-to-part reliability and very low performance degradation conditions. Elhamdulillah TEI has been successfully producing both the raw materials ["powdered" Ni, W etc.] and single crystal blades since 2017! Turbo-props and turbo-shafts are already technology-wise done and are in serial productions. As for Turbo-fans it'll take time but all the building blocks are there!!! Engineering R&D is all about linear progression, not quantum leaps. For a reason the West has put so much sanctions on Turkey, but they're late!!! The closest reminiscence of this Turkish endeavor is the Pak nuclear program.....

 

[python-000]

Simple conclusion is this that we cant get our T-129 before 2022 to 2025 so it is better to go for Z-10ME on urgent bases from China & expend deadline for Turkey for the delivery of these choppers...

 

[Readerdefence]

You can name it whatever you want but the engine issue needs resolving before the helos become a safe bet to buy. I wish my brothers success in this endeavour but till the issue is resolved no one is going to come to Turkey for buying their products. In many ways the US/West has not allowed Turkey keynote products to retain control. You tried selling a/product and they put the spanners in the works. Turkey Iam sure was aware of the issues and making endeavours to achieve success but the project has matured before the/engine project has and hence the difficulties. Once the engine issue is over and done with and on completion of testing Iam sure Pakistan will be knocking on Turkey's doors.
A

Hi sir if I may ask is there any possibility for a Russian engines to go with ATAK /2 or something to 10 ton heli in progress for the Turks as these days Turks /Russians are well closed to each others as usa recently put some more restrictions towards Turkish defence firms
if possible to answer
thank you

 

[Readerdefence]

Simple conclusion is this that we cant get our T-129 before 2022 to 2025 so it is better to go for Z-10ME on urgent bases from China & expend deadline for Turkey for the delivery of these choppers...

Hi sir if I may you can’t give any deadlines between these two countries as lot of things been supplied to PN and offcourse PAF & PA also and most of these are not credit so these credit can go further & further at the end Pakistan can always get something else from turks as they are more refined then POF or others Pakistani defence productions
at the end Turks also want to get along with these helicopters as for their own use and utilisation for their own forces
but here you are right about getting Z10/ME or whatever latest but we do have to keep one thing in mind may be Pakistan is already in process of getting something more urgently in need of something else at the moment from Chinese in defence sector I don’t want to speculate but whatever been send back to China with some input and updates requirements from Pakistan usually come back
thank you

 

[MastanKhan]

The "core engine" part is the same for turbo-shaft, turbo-prop and turbo-fan engines! The most important part is to produce single crystal blades from the "powdered" Ni, W etc. to withstand 2,000C+ temp under high pressure conditions for thousands of hours with a very high (six sigma) part-to-part reliability and very low performance degradation conditions. Elhamdulillah TEI has been successfully producing both the raw materials ["powdered" Ni, W etc.] and single crystal blades since 2017! Turbo-props and turbo-shafts are already technology-wise done and are in serial productions. As for Turbo-fans it'll take time but all the building blocks are there!!! Engineering R&D is all about linear progression, not quantum leaps. For a reason the West has put so much sanctions on Turkey, but they're late!!! The closest reminiscence of this Turkish endeavor is the Pak nuclear program.....

Hi,

I agree with what you are saying---. A general aircraft engine or a helicopter engine fall under that category and I am pretty sure that that Turkey would be successful in producing the much needed power plant.

On your last comment---it is a make of break moment for Turkey.

 

[airmarshal]

The "core engine" part is the same for turbo-shaft, turbo-prop and turbo-fan engines! The most important part is to produce single crystal blades from the "powdered" Ni, W etc. to withstand 2,000C+ temp under high pressure conditions for thousands of hours with a very high (six sigma) part-to-part reliability and very low performance degradation conditions. Elhamdulillah TEI has been successfully producing both the raw materials ["powdered" Ni, W etc.] and single crystal blades since 2017! Turbo-props and turbo-shafts are already technology-wise done and are in serial productions. As for Turbo-fans it'll take time but all the building blocks are there!!! Engineering R&D is all about linear progression, not quantum leaps. For a reason the West has put so much sanctions on Turkey, but they're late!!! The closest reminiscence of this Turkish endeavor is the Pak nuclear program.....

This is such a good news! It shows how well Turkey has been doing in local defence production.

 

[araz]

With the realization of this Turboshaft engine technology we've graduated to the champion's league (Britain, Germany, France etc.) in this sector - Prof. Dr. Faruk Aksit, TEI Chief

We consider it a done deal! After having a PhD from the Reseller Polytechnic Institute and working at GE's turbo-engine group for 10+years, Dr Faruk Aksit (TEI chief) won't let it go if he's not 110% sure of the certification!!! By the by, Turkey has built a state-of-the-art Test Environment to test the jet engines of all sorts....

TEI has investments and business deals with GE. Almost all GE turbo-engines have a noticeable number of movable parts produced by TEI. If the Turkish Defense industry hasn't had this much of intellectual honesty of adhering to their promises they couldn't have destroyed the top-notch Russian systems so proficiently, and nor the West would have applied so much of sanction on them....

*This Fakir has decades of engineering R&D experience working in humble projects. I personally know how tough our bosses are regarding meeting the performance, functionality, reliability etc. specs for they don't want to be fooled at the point of no return

That was the whole point. Turkey may nearly be there but is certainly not there yet. It may be 2-5 years and if there are niggles perhaps more. Company execs give a lot of statements regarding their products. The proof of the pudding is in actual useage and complying with international regulations. EU certification is not going to come easily as a lot of hurdles maybe created. You must remember this is a hotly contested market and a muslim state entering this sphere/market would be discouraged in any way shape and form for obvious reasons. You have already had a taste of that in the attempts to join the EU.
I am a fan of Turkish developments but again advise you to temper your boasts till such time that the certification is there and the engine has won all the trials it is put through. I would be the first one to congratulate you but till then just hold-on to your horses.
A

 

[eagleeye]

The civil version of gökbey will have the eu certification . it will take time . military version of gökbey and atak do not need it . therefore tai wil start to produce 3 gökbey heli this year for jandarma. and they will also begin this year with the integration of ts1400 engine on atak helikopter. ts1400 engine and LHTEC-CTS800 engine have the same size i am sure they don't need more than 1 year for integration and tests

 

[aziqbal]

The 10-ton ATAK-2 is named as T-929!!! It's Apachee class combat chopper. Hopefully, Pak goes for it....

is this the official name ?

great news, I always say we wait for this helicopter even if its 2030 by the time its ready

T129 has been a great success no doubt T929 will be too

what is the Turkish Army order book for this helo? how many

would love to see this carrying 16 x UMTAS missiles