Pakistan Army's T-129 ATAK Helicopter Deal | Updates & Discussions.

[T-123456]

I believe T-129 is the best selection for Pakistan Army. T-129 is European standard attack helicopter.
T-129 has better radar and targeting Systems than anything China and Russia have. Plus add the weapon package.

If Pakistan has to go for another helicopter than that would be Eurocopter Tiger. This is a costly exercise.

Bear in mind, Turkish Defense Industry is European standard but cost effective. Thanks to the US, Germany, UK and Italy for transferring Technology to Turkey.

You are right about Italy but come on,the US,Germany and the UK,transfer of technology?
In what fantasy world did this happen?

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

You are right about Italy but come on,the US,Germany and the UK,transfer of technology?
In what fantasy world did this happen?

He might be referring to the UK's services for the TF-X and the TAI and TEI programs with Lockheed/Sikorsky and GE (for the T-70 Black Hawk).

 

[T-123456]

He might be referring to the UK's services for the TF-X and the TAI and TEI programs with Lockheed/Sikorsky and GE (for the T-70 Black Hawk).

I dont think so but ill pretend to buy it.

 

[polanski]

You are right about Italy but come on,the US,Germany and the UK,transfer of technology?
In what fantasy world did this happen?

Turkey manufactures many components of F-16. Thanks to the US.
German transferred Submarine Technology to Turkey. Italy transferred Helicopter Technology. The UK transferred many technologies of land Systems, Avionics and off course TFX.
These are just few examples but Lockheed Martin has many collaboration with Turkish defense Industry e.g. missile integration program.

 

[denel]

Hi Denel it might be limited selection as you said due to Pakistan’s financial hiccups or some other reasons may be Rooivalk are not interested to give Pakistan desired technology transfer and credit line which I’m sure Turkey is happy to extend
I might be wrong mate but if you want to put up Rooivalk in the line then there are more capable
Items in the market only problem with Pakistan at the moment is Dosh
Your input will be appreciated
Thank you

I dont think they were approached; there is a huge potential but somehow never materialises.

 

[SQ8]

I dont think they were approached; there is a huge potential but somehow never materialises.

They were never on the map. In the 5 IDEAS exhibitions I have been to in the past 15 years, I have yet to see the roolivak or anything other than a small stand by Denel Dynamics.
Bell, Eurocopter, Harbin and TAI have solid presence which frequents Pakistani officers and government official.
The only thing I saw from SA as a model was the G-6.

You can claim to and have the best equipment, but if you incapable of marketing it then you have no customer.

 

[Quwa]

They were never on the map. In the 5 IDEAS exhibitions I have been to in the past 15 years, I have yet to see the roolivak or anything other than a small stand by Denel Dynamics.
Bell, Eurocopter, Harbin and TAI have solid presence which frequents Pakistani officers and government official.
The only thing I saw from SA as a model was the G-6.

You can claim to and have the best equipment, but if you incapable of marketing it then you have no customer.

Sometimes, the OEM must also be forthright.

In the late 1980s, the PAF was just broadly toying with the idea of a new lightweight fighter, but it never kicked-off in earnest until Chengdu and Northrop approached it with the Sabre II. Once the Sabre II collapsed and a few years passed, Chengdu again came up and showed them the Super-7. Likewise, before the PAF cemented Project Azm, it was Chengdu and Shenyang coming up with clearly articulated ideas/plans. Heck, even TAI -- when it had less than nothing -- approached the PAF about the TF-X.

Basically, one must force the issue. That's why one can respect Poland for -- despite not having as much to offer as others -- inviting PAC, HIT and POF to see what's on offer. In turn POF even spoke to Fabryka Broni about the MSBS/Grot, even though it didn't compete in the trials.

 

[Thorough Pro]

In the 1980's we were busy buying F-16's, when the first ones arrived? 1983?

Sometimes, the OEM must also be forthright.

In the late 1980s, the PAF was just broadly toying with the idea of a new lightweight fighter, but it never kicked-off in earnest until Chengdu and Northrop approached it with the Sabre II. Once the Sabre II collapsed and a few years passed, Chengdu again came up and showed them the Super-7. Likewise, before the PAF cemented Project Azm, it was Chengdu and Shenyang coming up with clearly articulated ideas/plans. Heck, even TAI -- when it had less than nothing -- approached the PAF about the TF-X.

Basically, one must force the issue. That's why one can respect Poland for -- despite not having as much to offer as others -- inviting PAC, HIT and POF to see what's on offer. In turn POF even spoke to Fabryka Broni about the MSBS/Grot, even though it didn't compete in the trials.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

In the 1980's we were busy buying F-16's, when the first ones arrived? 1983?

The work that eventually resulted in the JF-17 started in the late 1980s. The PAF was looking for a lightweight fighter to complement the F-16s and to help replace the F-6s. It took a look at the Mirage F-1, but opted to study upgrading the Chengdu F-7P with the help of Northrop Grumman, i.e. Project Sabre II.

That program collapsed due to US sanctions on China and the PAF opted for F-7Ps instead. However, Chengdu kept working on a lightweight fighter program via a clean-sheet design, i.e. FC-1/Super-7, which it proposed to the PAF in the early 1990s.

 

[denel]

They were never on the map. In the 5 IDEAS exhibitions I have been to in the past 15 years, I have yet to see the roolivak or anything other than a small stand by Denel Dynamics.
Bell, Eurocopter, Harbin and TAI have solid presence which frequents Pakistani officers and government official.
The only thing I saw from SA as a model was the G-6.

You can claim to and have the best equipment, but if you incapable of marketing it then you have no customer.

We have some of the best equipment no need to prove it - it is out there mineproof vehicles, artillery, comms etc; our marketing is poor towards your country; i think they gave up long time ago and dont waste money to bring the big units over.

 

[Thorough Pro]

both F-16 and Mirage are of the same weight class, with F-16 more of a MR fighter and Mirage a better choice for ground attack. If PAF had funds and they were looking for two new platforms at the same time, then they should have gone for more F-16's because our mirage 3/5 at that time were not in bad shape. Pakistan joined JF-17 program quite late, probably in early/mid 90's. china however started their super 7 much earlier, at that time Pakistan had good relations with US and was not even in the super 7 picture.

The work that eventually resulted in the JF-17 started in the late 1980s. The PAF was looking for a lightweight fighter to complement the F-16s and to help replace the F-6s. It took a look at the Mirage F-1, but opted to study upgrading the Chengdu F-7P with the help of Northrop Grumman, i.e. Project Sabre II.

That program collapsed due to US sanctions on China and the PAF opted for F-7Ps instead. However, Chengdu kept working on a lightweight fighter program via a clean-sheet design, i.e. FC-1/Super-7, which it proposed to the PAF in the early 1990s.

 

[SQ8]

We have some of the best equipment no need to prove it - it is out there mineproof vehicles, artillery, comms etc; our marketing is poor towards your country; i think they gave up long time ago and dont waste money to bring the big units over.

Equipment that is not getting money to develop, which includes the roolivak is eventually heading to obsolescence.

 

[Quwa]

both F-16 and Mirage are of the same weight class, with F-16 more of a MR fighter and Mirage a better choice for ground attack. If PAF had funds and they were looking for two new platforms at the same time, then they should have gone for more F-16's because our mirage 3/5 at that time were not in bad shape. Pakistan joined JF-17 program quite late, probably in early/mid 90's. china however started their super 7 much earlier, at that time Pakistan had good relations with US and was not even in the super 7 picture.

The F-16A/B is heavier than the Mirage 3/5 -- i.e. MTOW of 17,000 kg vs. 14,000 kg. Through the 1970s the PAF had basically used the Mirage 3/5 as a dual air-to-air and air-to-ground fighter. The "strike role" aspect began to matter in the early 1980s via the induction of the Mirage 5PA3, i.e. Project Blue Flash, which brought the Agave radar and Exocet AShM integration (i.e. the PAF's first real stand-off weapon capability)

However, the PAF was seeking a complementary lightweight multi-role fighter to work with the F-16 and Mirages (and basically replace the F-6s). This was Project Sabre II, which was a collaborative program between the PAF, Chengdu and Northrop Grumman to develop a turbofan variant of the F-7 with the F-20's radar and avionics.

Sabre II was a thing in the late 1980s, but it fell through when Northrop had to withdraw due to US sanctions on China. From that point on, the PAF opted for more F-7s but still kept an eye on making a fighter eventually until the early-to-mid 1990s, i.e. when Chengdu forced the issue by showing its work on the FC-1/Super-7.

https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1989/1989 - 2539.html?search=Sabre II

https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1987/1987 - 1745.html?search=Sabre II

https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1988/1988 - 0341.html?search=Sabre II

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

Sabre II design in this picture looks quite close to Grippen if this design were to be a delta it would look exactly like the Grippen.

The F-16A/B is heavier than the Mirage 3/5 -- i.e. MTOW of 17,000 kg vs. 14,000 kg. Through the 1970s the PAF had basically used the Mirage 3/5 as a dual air-to-air and air-to-ground fighter. The "strike role" aspect began to matter in the early 1980s via the induction of the Mirage 5PA3, i.e. Project Blue Flash, which brought the Agave radar and Exocet AShM integration (i.e. the PAF's first real stand-off weapon capability)

However, the PAF was seeking a complementary lightweight multi-role fighter to work with the F-16 and Mirages (and basically replace the F-6s). This was Project Sabre II, which was a collaborative program between the PAF, Chengdu and Northrop Grumman to develop a turbofan variant of the F-7 with the F-20's radar and avionics.

Sabre II was a thing in the late 1980s, but it fell through when Northrop had to withdraw due to US sanctions on China. From that point on, the PAF opted for more F-7s but still kept an eye on making a fighter eventually until the early-to-mid 1990s, i.e. when Chengdu forced the issue by showing its work on the FC-1/Super-7.

View attachment 498331
https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1989/1989 - 2539.html?search=Sabre II

View attachment 498332
https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1987/1987 - 1745.html?search=Sabre II

View attachment 498333
https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1988/1988 - 0341.html?search=Sabre II

 

[denel]

Equipment that is not getting money to develop, which includes the roolivak is eventually heading to obsolescence.

Yes that is valid point, only now there is a phased project to get them upgraded.
Our challenge is Armscor has become politicised and most of the top capable engineers left and formed Paramount which is turning tables in terms of major exports - vehicles; they have not yet gotten into the rooivalk or equivalent. They are leading in terms of exports revenue.