Pakistan Army's T-129 ATAK Helicopter Deal | Updates & Discussions.

[That Guy]

In the in-term yes I do think the Turkish deal will be blocked.. and in the end PA will end up with AH 1Z Viper, perhaps with a deal they will not refuse and can't. The two heli's that PA is most interested in is the T-129 and or the AH 1Z Viper in all due respect the Chinese heli is when both deals are off the table and no other choice is left given what PA needs simply.

I disagree.

The US has no reason to block the deal in any shape of form, and it certainly won't do anything to **** of Turkey, one of it's closest NATO allies, who are relying on this deal with Pakistan to grow the T-129's market visibility.

Pakistan has no real interest in the AH-1Z besides the fact that it would essentially come with a $300 million "military aid", but as Mr. Cloughley correctly said and I quote

“I do not think that Pakistan would be tempted to ditch the T-129 deal if there were an offer of Vipers. There might be a good deal proposed by the US, but operating costs are high and would [argue] against acceptance. Further, and probably more significant, there is decided and most strong opposition in Pakistan to further deals with the US.”

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...-but-us-could-scupper-deal.html#ixzz2gbxsHKIA

This is also not to mention that Pakistani future sanction concerns, which Turkey has proven in the past that it is willing to ignore...etc etc etc.

With the T-129, Pakistan would be getting local production and potential partial ToTs, along with a potential of 3 FREE T-129s and the others on major discount. That's not something that Pakistan will throw away.

 

[Inception-06]

nobody trust the US muahaha

 

[tarrar]

First of all, the US has just offered Pakistan a sale of AH-1Z attack copters as a replacement for Pakistan's aging cobra fleet with $300 million dollar in "military aid" to buy them. EU nations have tried to sell Pakistan military hardware, for example Germany tried to sell subs to Pakistan, but financial constraints have gotten in the way; So it's not for the lack of trying, it's a money issue.

Turkey and China are good partners, but they're not Pakistan's only option. South Africa and Brazil have always offered their assistance in military matters, Serbia and Pakistan have recently (and surprisingly quietly) increased defence cooperation (LAZAR2), and a future potential supplier could very well be Russia whom Pakistan has been aggressively trying to bring into the Pakistani camp and out of India's camp (with decent success).

Here, check this out, it's pretty interesting.

Mapping Arms Data - the trade in small arms and their ammunition, 1992-2011

Lets hope its all true. Whatever happens who ever wins the contract, Pakistan needs Military hardware.

 

[Viper0011.]

Oscar

I have a very basic question. If Pakistan is really really serious about tackling the militants why doesn't it plan joint operations with the US on the other side in a pincer movement and crush them. The US seems to think Paks are more interested in getting aid/weapons etc. rather than simply get rid of the terrorists.

To be frank the F-16's used in the FATA resion causes immense collateral damage to which not as much coverage as opposed to drones whose coverage in incessant. In fact according to reports FATA people actually welcome(d) drones.

This casts aspersions on Pakistan's real motives in both US and India and makes both extremely wary of Pak.

I can just tell by the way you write that you are from India. You can't mix 'the US' and India in the same sentence as if they were buddies. You guys are and will always be about 3 decades away. India is ALWAYS wary of Pak. Nothing new about it. The US however, is wary on occasions when it feels that the PA isn't cooperating the way they'd like to. The US interest in this region is a LOT different than the Indian interest in Pakistan. You guys are giving money to different Taliban fractions to bomb your neighbor. But the US wants a peaceful exit and a better Afghanistan after it leaves. And for that, it wants the ISI and the PA to not interfere in the Afghan regime. But again, the Indian interests are VERY different and self serving than the US interest who just wants to see a stable Afghanistan and Pakistan for that matter !

 

[Black Eagle 90]

Korean Tender already decided. T-129 lost to Apache at the final stage.

So don't bother Pakistanis as they are not going to but it all.

 

[-SINAN-]

So don't bother Pakistanis as they are not going to but it all.

Are you a Pakistani Military official ?

 

[k_arura]

India does not want any other country to meddle in its affairs or help it solve its problems with Pak and China. Whenever you get a third party involved in "solving" a problem their own interests come to the fore. Read the story in this link under "The Foolish Cats and the Cunning Monkey"

The Story of Clever Fox and other Stories for Children

Let me also reproduce below:

Once, a cat saw a piece of bread on the road. But by the time it could reach it, another cat saw it and both pounced upon it. The cats started fighting.
After sometime, the first cat suggested that they could divide the bread into two pieces. The other cat agreed. But who would divide the piece of bread? They both doubted each other.
Meanwhile, a monkey came there. The cats asked the monkey to divide the bread into two equal halves.
The monkey was very cunning. He made two pieces of the bread and then he checked their size. Finding one bigger than the other, he ate a bit from the bigger piece. Then he noticed that the other piece was bigger and ate a bit from that.
He carried on like this for some time and eventually, he ate up both the pieces, leaving the cats with nothing.

 

[k_arura]

I can just tell by the way you write that you are from India. You can't mix 'the US' and India in the same sentence as if they were buddies. You guys are and will always be about 3 decades away. India is ALWAYS wary of Pak. Nothing new about it. The US however, is wary on occasions when it feels that the PA isn't cooperating the way they'd like to. The US interest in this region is a LOT different than the Indian interest in Pakistan. You guys are giving money to different Taliban fractions to bomb your neighbor. But the US wants a peaceful exit and a better Afghanistan after it leaves. And for that, it wants the ISI and the PA to not interfere in the Afghan regime. But again, the Indian interests are VERY different and self serving than the US interest who just wants to see a stable Afghanistan and Pakistan for that matter !

Thats what YOU think. Very convenient. The following might "open" your eyes:


The Destabilization of Pakistan | Global Research

> Military scholar Lieutenant Colonel Ralph Peters writing in the June 2006 issue of The Armed Forces Journal, suggests, in no uncertain terms that Pakistan should be broken up, leading to the formation of a separate country: “Greater Balochistan” or “Free Balochistan” (see Map below). The latter would incorporate the Pakistani and Iranian Baloch provinces into a single political entity.


FYI, Ralph is NO Indian. But certainly a friend of India. Looks like you are more interested in my origins than in the arguments I present. Example of a "mindless" mind, if you get my drift pal!

 

[SQ8]

Oscar

I have a very basic question. If Pakistan is really really serious about tackling the militants why doesn't it plan joint operations with the US on the other side in a pincer movement and crush them. The US seems to think Paks are more interested in getting aid/weapons etc. rather than simply get rid of the terrorists.

To be frank the F-16's used in the FATA resion causes immense collateral damage to which not as much coverage as opposed to drones whose coverage in incessant. In fact according to reports FATA people actually welcome(d) drones.

This casts aspersions on Pakistan's real motives in both US and India and makes both extremely wary of Pak.

Its quite simply, the US is willing to attack the Afghan Taliban but is selective on the Pakistani Militant groups. Pakistan is willing to attack all Pakistani militants but is selective on the Afghan militant groups.

 

[That Guy]

Thats what YOU think. Very convenient. The following might "open" your eyes:


The Destabilization of Pakistan | Global Research

> Military scholar Lieutenant Colonel Ralph Peters writing in the June 2006 issue of The Armed Forces Journal, suggests, in no uncertain terms that Pakistan should be broken up, leading to the formation of a separate country: “Greater Balochistan” or “Free Balochistan” (see Map below). The latter would incorporate the Pakistani and Iranian Baloch provinces into a single political entity.


FYI, Ralph is NO Indian. But certainly a friend of India. Looks like you are more interested in my origins than in the arguments I present. Example of a "mindless" mind, if you get my drift pal!

There is a major flaw with this. It assumes that violence would subside by breaking up and recreating international borders of the middle east and Pakistan. The reality is that violence will continue, militants and extremists will find new excuses.

By the way, don't use global research as a source, it's a known anti-immigration conservative, conspiricy theory website in Canada. No sane person in Canada takes this website seriously.

IN FACT, read this. it's from the same article and it proves my point;

Without evidence, quoting Pakistan government sources, the Western media in chorus has highlighted the role of Al-Qaeda, while also focusing on the the possible involvement of the ISI.

What these interpretations do not mention is that the ISI continues to play a key role in overseeing Al Qaeda on behalf of US intelligence. The press reports fail to mention two important and well documented facts:

1) the ISI maintains close ties to the CIA. The ISI is virtually an appendage of the CIA.

2) Al Qaeda is a creation of the CIA. The ISI provides covert support to Al Qaeda, acting on behalf of US intelligence.

The alleged involvement of either Al Qaeda and/or the ISI would suggest that US intelligence was cognizant and/or implicated in the assassination plot.

USE BETTER SOURCES NEXT TIME.

Also, stick to the topic please. This is not the thread to talk about this particular topic.

 

[k_arura]

So both are two timing each other. More so Pak though. Pak never seemed serious about NOT wanting to maintain Haqqani's as a strategic asset. US' action is more a reaction.

Haqqani Network | Institute for the Study of War

> Pakistan Connection



Haqqani’s connection with the ISI dates back to the times of the Soviet jihad. According to U.S. Special Envoy and Ambassador to Afghanistan (1989-1992), Peter Tomsen, the ISI has maintained its Jihad era ties with Haqqani.15 Right after the U.S. invasion in October 2001, Haqqani was invited to Islamabad for talks about a post-Taliban government.16 In a transcript passed to Mike McConnell, the Director of National Intelligence in May 2008, Pakistan’s army chief General Ashfaq Kayani was heard referring to Haqqani as “a strategic asset.”17 A top ISI official was reported to have held talks with Sirajuddin Haqqani, one of Jalaluddin’s sons who has replaced him as the leader of the movement due to his father’s ill-health, in Miranshah of North Waziristan in early March 2009.18 In a prisoner exchange with Pakistani Taliban led by Baitullah Mehsud, the Pakistani government released three family members of the Haqqani family in November 2007 – Haqqani’s brother Khalil Ahmad, son Dr. Fazl-i-Haqqani and brother-in-law Ghazi Khan.19 Haqqani is said to have mediated peace deals between the Pakistani government and Waziri and Mehsudi commanders of the Pakistani Taliban in North and South Waziristan.20

 

[SQ8]

So both are two timing each other. More so Pak though. Pak never seemed serious about NOT wanting to maintain Haqqani's as a strategic asset. US' action is more a reaction.

In either case this is not the topic for it so no further posts on this will be allowed.

Please stick to the T-129.

 

[k_arura]

I was on topic until you made the point about US being friend of Pak or not as unfriendly. You have NO idea how UNFRIENDLY US is about to get with Pak after drawdown from Afghanistan when Pak loses relevance from a supply route POV.

Also don't live in the past. The link was more a link to Ralph Peters for which I could have used another link, say

Balochistan: U.S. Prepares Yugoslav Model For Pakistan And Iran | Stop NATO...Opposition to global militarism

> Ralph Peters in his testimony supported the idea of an independent Balochistan as per his article “Blood Borders” published in the Armed Forces Journal in June 2006 with a map of “Free Balochistan” (comprising the Balochistan provinces in Pakistan and Iran and parts of Afghanistan).

Now about violence. Sure in the short to medium term violence will flare up but in the long run it will tend to become more peaceful as Pak would be defanged of its mischief making capabilities. Punjab will be landlocked. Keep nuclear weapons or be linked to the world! Balochistan and Sindh and even KPK are more moderate and secular.

In either case this is not the topic for it so no further posts on this will be allowed.

Please stick to the T-129.

Thats fine by me. Sticking to a topic is never a bad idea!

 

[That Guy]

I was on topic until you made the point about US being friend of Pak or not as unfriendly. You have NO idea how UNFRIENDLY US is about to get with Pak after drawdown from Afghanistan when Pak loses relevance from a supply route POV.

Also don't live in the past. The link was more a link to Ralph Peters for which I could have used another link, say

Balochistan: U.S. Prepares Yugoslav Model For Pakistan And Iran | Stop NATO...Opposition to global militarism

> Ralph Peters in his testimony supported the idea of an independent Balochistan as per his article “Blood Borders” published in the Armed Forces Journal in June 2006 with a map of “Free Balochistan” (comprising the Balochistan provinces in Pakistan and Iran and parts of Afghanistan).

Now about violence. Sure in the short to medium term violence will flare up but in the long run it will tend to become more peaceful as Pak would be defanged of its mischief making capabilities. Punjab will be landlocked. Keep nuclear weapons or be linked to the world! Balochistan and Sindh and even KPK are more moderate and secular.

Thats fine by me. Sticking to a topic is never a bad idea!

Pakistan knows this full well, it's experienced this before.

Now you're using wordpress as a source. Just stop dude, stick to topic.

 

[Thorough Pro]

No offence to Turkish brothers, but in my opinion Pakistan should learn from the past and not buy any equipment which might compromise its operational capabilities, specialty in the light of US-India romance these days.

Best course of action would be to go for Chinese WZ-10, or a combo of Chinese hardware+ Turkish avionics/software etc.