Pakistan Army's T-129 ATAK Helicopter Deal | Updates & Discussions.

[Tipu7]

I think Pakistan knows that Z-10 is available and Chinese will sell if required by PAA since Chinese do make improvements as per Pakistan's requirements, therefore exploring other options since better options are also available.

IMO high altitude Ops is a major reason for procuring both T-129 and AH-1Z

Z10 is last resort. If nothing will come then Z10 will come. In trials T129 out performed Z10 in roughly all aspects thus prompting Pakistan to go for ATAK instead of Z10. China, eversince, has undertaken requisite upgrades in terms of avionics and structural modifications, and Pakistan's other gunship programs are also in trouble. So we never know when plans will change. (again)

Any Russian Gunship engine that can help ATAK T-129 reach the heights ? Can Russian engines get evaluated by TAI ? Would new Turkish engine be comparable or better than Russian Engine?

I don't think any turboshaft Russian engine is there which can fit into existing T129.

If a gunship is required for Anti-Tank role, then its probably convenient to deploy an Aviation regiment of UAV/UCAV with every Corps HQ. This Regiment could have two squadrons (Fixed wing and Rotary) of UAVs for recon,surveillance, delivery of ammo/medicines/supplies, communication relays, Electronic Warfare, forward aerial observers for artillery etc. The third squadron can be a UCAV squadron armed with ATGMs to attack enemy armor formations, artillery, Air Defense and Radars, field command centers, ammo and fuel supplies, bridges, bunkers, tunnels etc.

A shot down UAV/UCAV will not cause any friendly human losses of pilots, no issue of POWs. If UAV/UCAV are locally built, they can be replaced easily than the loss of Gunship or aircraft. Enemy may celebrate victory of downing 50 UAV/UCAV, but at the end of the day, loss of UAV/UCAV is more of financial loss, its not a psychological loss of losing personnel to an enemy neither counted as the downing of the gunships/aircrafts for which records are kept and celebrated. No basic liability during the course of war.

UCAV with anti tank weapons will definitely catalyze over all anti armor capabilities of Army but these unmanned systems cannot replace the role of Gunships. Afterall, modern gunships are more flexible in target designation (less likely to suffer from thick EW environment), more robust in flight path (terrain hugging, covering behind obstacles) and carry diverse range of weapons (yes 20mm does count). Moreover, I have observed that during military exercises, PAA Cobras along with scout helicopter excort army armored formation as a measure of enhanced situation awareness and added firepower. Imagine a modern gunship equipped with FLIR and mmW FCR supporting Pakistan's ground formations!

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Z10 is last resort. If nothing will come then Z10 will come. In trials T129 out performed Z10 in roughly all aspects thus prompting Pakistan to go for them instead of Z10.

Insha'Allah the Turkish engineers, along with some "friends", working day and night on the Turbo-shaft engines won't disappoint us....

According to the defense analyst Mete Yarar, the closest to the Establishment as far as I have seen, the Turkish indigenous chopper engine is almost there...

 

[mingle]

Z10 is last resort. If nothing will come then Z10 will come. In trials T129 out performed Z10 in roughly all aspects thus prompting Pakistan to go for ATAK instead of Z10. China, eversince, has undertaken requisite upgrades in terms of avionics and structural modifications, and Pakistan's other gunship programs are also in trouble. So we never know when plans will change. (again)

I don't think any turboshaft Russian engine is there which can fit into existing T129.

UCAV with anti tank weapons will definitely catalyze over all anti armor capabilities of Army but these unmanned systems cannot replace the role of Gunships. Afterall, modern gunships are more flexible in target designation (less likely to suffer from thick EW environment), more robust in flight path (terrain hugging, covering behind obstacles) and carry diverse range of weapons (yes 20mm does count). Moreover, I have observed that during military exercises, PAA Cobras along with scout helicopter excort army armored formation as a measure of enhanced situation awareness and added firepower. Imagine a modern gunship equipped with FLIR and mmW FCR supporting Pakistan's ground formations!

Why not Denel Rooviak??? Once for all issue solved may cost same amount of money what we gonna pay for T129??

 

[xbat]

Any Russian Gunship engine that can help ATAK T-129 reach the heights ? Can Russian engines get evaluated by TAI ? Would new Turkish engine be comparable or better than Russian Engine?

JF-17 uses Russian engines, so does Mi-17 and Mi-35.

TAI never considers a Russian engine for ATAK. Russian engine tech can not be comparable with western engines . They are inferior with their efficiency , durability and of course reliability. For example Turkish Gandermerie operates some MI 17 choppers, its engines spread too much IR signature that IR suppressor cant cope with it. so it is an easy target for IR missiles.

We hope TS1400(1500HP) would be much better than any russian engine. Combustion level about 98% so there would be no smoke unlike russian engines. Engine life is 2500+hrs for now, TEI is expecting 5000 hrs life span in serially production(they apply some other coatings etc.)

but we dont know the serial production date yet. this year TEI will deliver first engines to TAI for Gokbey helicopter. TAI needs some time to evaluate it. best candidate for **** choppers for now is new french engine, they took certificate, if all parties agree with that .

 

[Signalian]

Z10 is last resort. If nothing will come then Z10 will come. In trials T129 out performed Z10 in roughly all aspects thus prompting Pakistan to go for ATAK instead of Z10. China, eversince, has undertaken requisite upgrades in terms of avionics and structural modifications, and Pakistan's other gunship programs are also in trouble. So we never know when plans will change. (again)

Z-10 has been in trials, didnt hear anything after that. Pakistan has extended deadline for T-129 delivery, which makes me skeptical that Z-10 will be coming, otherwise the Pakistani interest in finalizing Z-10 for PAA would have seen some sort of news/meetings or paper work.

I don't think any turboshaft Russian engine is there which can fit into existing T129.

I wanted to see the options out there which Turkish could excercise.

UCAV with anti tank weapons will definitely catalyze over all anti armor capabilities of Army but these unmanned systems cannot replace the role of Gunships. Afterall, modern gunships are more flexible in target designation (less likely to suffer from thick EW environment), more robust in flight path (terrain hugging, covering behind obstacles) and carry diverse range of weapons (yes 20mm does count). Moreover, I have observed that during military exercises, PAA Cobras along with scout helicopter excort army armored formation as a measure of enhanced situation awareness and added firepower. Imagine a modern gunship equipped with FLIR and mmW FCR supporting Pakistan's ground formations!

I didn't say to replace Gunship with UCAV. I mentioned deployment of a Drone Regiment with Corps HQ, you know why ? Because there are very little chances that Corps HQ will get dedicated Gunship squadron assigned to it. All the Gunships will stay under Aviation Command and assigned as necessary with Field HQs. The Drone Regiment will be a dedicated aerial surveillance and attack asset available to Corps HQ.

Gunships have a specialized role, they are needed for COIN too, but their burden can be shared by UCAV in Anti-Tank role. Gunships can even be command and control center for other aerial assets. Gunships should be able to control UAV/UCAVs .High EW environment will affect Gunships too, not just Drones. A scout drone can be used instead of a scout heli. That heli can be deputed to transport role. The pods you mentioned are/can be used on drones also.

 

[Signalian]

TAI never considers a Russian engine for ATAK. Russian engine tech can not be comparable with western engines . They are inferior with their efficiency , durability and of course reliability. For example Turkish Gandermerie operates some MI 17 choppers, its engines spread too much IR signature that IR suppressor cant cope with it. so it is an easy target for IR missiles.

We hope TS1400(1500HP) would be much better than any russian engine. Combustion level about 98% so there would be no smoke unlike russian engines. Engine life is 2500+hrs for now, TEI is expecting 5000 hrs life span in serially production(they apply some other coatings etc.)

but we dont know the serial production date yet. this year TEI will deliver first engines to TAI for Gokbey helicopter. TAI needs some time to evaluate it. best candidate for **** choppers for now is new french engine, they took certificate, if all parties agree with that .

Pakistan does operate Russian engines in rotary and fixed wing. Reputation aside, Russian heli engines have been in industry for a long time. Tusas E I (TEI) is making a turbo shaft for the first time, tested in 2019 and that on a utility helicopter. the requirement for a gunship might be stringent than that of a UH. The French option did not cross my mind, Rooivalk uses French engine.

 

[mingle]

Pakistan does operate Russian engines in rotary and fixed wing. Reputation aside, Russian heli engines have been in industry for a long time. Tusas E I (TEI) is making a turbo shaft for the first time, tested in 2019 and that on a utility helicopter. the requirement for a gunship might be stringent than that of a UH. The French option did not cross my mind, Rooivalk uses French engine.

Why not Rooviak I mean settle this thing once for all

 

[Signalian]

Why not Rooviak I mean settle this thing once for all

@Tipu7 do the honors

 

[Tipu7]

@Tipu7 do the honors

I don't know why people want to push for a helicopter which has seen repeated export failures, has only one squadron operational and that too within South African Air Force, relies on third party sources extensively for acquiring key components and its future aspects regarding integration of modern technologies is known (Though it's Mk2 variant is proposed for export).
We simply cannot afford a joint project for Gunship like we did in case of Thunder. It's beyond our economic capacity for time being. Hence, proven designs have been sorted out by Pakistan.

I didn't say to replace Gunship with UCAV. I mentioned deployment of a Drone Regiment with Corps HQ, you know why ? Because there are very little chances that Corps HQ will get dedicated Gunship squadron assigned to it. All the Gunships will stay under Aviation Command and assigned as necessary with Field HQs. The Drone Regiment will be a dedicated aerial surveillance and attack asset available to Corps HQ.

It's an innovative idea and seems plausible. But I guess PAF will not let it happen. After all, fixed wing airborne killing stuff is PAF department and PAF will tend to keep UCAV squadrons within its ranks instead of letting army to raise its own.

 

[Zarvan]

I don't know why people want to push for a helicopter which has seen repeated export failures, has only one squadron operational and that too within South African Air Force, relies on third party sources extensively for acquiring key components and its future aspects regarding integration of modern technologies is known (Though it's Mk2 variant is proposed for export).
We simply cannot afford a joint project for Gunship like we did in case of Thunder. It's beyond our economic capacity for time being. Hence, proven designs have been sorted out by Pakistan.


It's an innovative idea and seems plausible. But I guess PAF will not let it happen. After all, fixed wing airborne killing stuff is PAF department and PAF will tend to keep UCAV squadrons within its ranks instead of letting army to raise its own.

In my opinion if T-129 GOD forbid doesn't come than it would be MI-28 vs Z-10 and may be vs KA 52. @Signalian Because MI-28 was offered by Russia way back in IDEAS 2016 along with PANTSIR and TOR and BUK M3 Air Defence System

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I don't know why people want to push for a helicopter which has seen repeated export failures, has only one squadron operational and that too within South African Air Force, relies on third party sources extensively for acquiring key components and its future aspects regarding integration of modern technologies is known (Though it's Mk2 variant is proposed for export).
We simply cannot afford a joint project for Gunship like we did in case of Thunder. It's beyond our economic capacity for time being. Hence, proven designs have been sorted out by Pakistan.

I'd say the Rooivalk Mk2 is worth considering.

1. The "export failure" point is a non-factor for us since the goal is to get a platform that works well and isn't subject to sanctions. And when countries not named Pakistan have way more options to explore (esp Apache), an alternative heavyweight attack heli like Rooivalk is redundant. It was borne of a sanctioned country with no other option, and that's the thought process we should have.

2. The Rooivalk Mk2's critical components of issue are its engine, transmission, etc. And they come from France via Airbus Helicopter, and are further based on the proven Makila engine and Puma helicopter.

It isn't exactly like the JF-17 (a design that was on paper until the PAF signed on). The Rooivalk is more of taking a project that exists and works, and reviving it with an upgrade.

It isn't a new development program as the new Mk2 uses the same airframe, engine and dynamic parts (so new R&D there). Rather, it's integrating new subsystems, avionics and weapons, all of which are available COTS (with some Pakistani suppliers too).

The real challenge is securing the critical tech from Safran and Airbus. The good thing is that the tech in question not cutting edge (and the French are working on way more high end stuff with the Chinese now, so fear of Chinese access is a non-issue too).

So, there's scope for getting it (e.g. license prod in Pakistan), provided we push for it. I don't know if that idea crossed our leadership's table, but if the thought process stops at "there's only 1 squadron in SA" or "it isn't economical" while pouring $300 m a year on an import (and more if we factor in the CSF/FMF for the AH-1Z), then I doubt it.

It's for situations like this a real equivalent to the Indian CAG to document the selection process and make it available to outside experts is key, for accountability and exploring all options very thoroughly.

@Ahmet Pasha @denel

 

[Path-Finder]

The real challenge is securing the critical tech from Safran and Airbus. The good thing is that the tech in question not cutting edge (and the French are working on way more high end stuff with the Chinese now, so fear of Chinese access is a non-issue too).

that means there is no issue.

 

[mingle]

I'd say the Rooivalk Mk2 is worth considering.

1. The "export failure" point is a non-factor for us since the goal is to get a platform that works well and isn't subject to sanctions. And when countries not named Pakistan have way more options to explore (esp Apache), an alternative heavyweight attack heli like Rooivalk is redundant. It was borne of a sanctioned country with no other option, and that's the thought process we should have.

2. The Rooivalk Mk2's critical components of issue are its engine, transmission, etc. And they come from France via Airbus Helicopter, and are further based on the proven Makila engine and Puma helicopter.

It isn't exactly like the JF-17 (a design that was on paper until the PAF signed on). The Rooivalk is more of taking a project that exists and works, and reviving it with an upgrade.

It isn't a new development program as the new Mk2 uses the same airframe, engine and dynamic parts (so new R&D there). Rather, it's integrating new subsystems, avionics and weapons, all of which are available COTS (with some Pakistani suppliers too).

The real challenge is securing the critical tech from Safran and Airbus. The good thing is that the tech in question not cutting edge (and the French are working on way more high end stuff with the Chinese now, so fear of Chinese access is a non-issue too).

So, there's scope for getting it (e.g. license prod in Pakistan), provided we push for it. I don't know if that idea crossed our leadership's table, but if the thought process stops at "there's only 1 squadron in SA" or "it isn't economical" while pouring $300 m a year on an import (and more if we factor in the CSF/FMF for the AH-1Z), then I doubt it.

It's for situations like this a real equivalent to the Indian CAG to document the selection process and make it available to outside experts is key, for accountability and exploring all options very thoroughly.

@Ahmet Pasha @denel

I remember old PDF Haris Khan used to be advocate for Rooviak Helis when PAA was looking Ah1z and other options
It's feasible and worth it for PAA rather than stuck with deals got huge delays and arm twisting

 

[Signalian]

In my opinion if T-129 GOD forbid doesn't come than it would be MI-28 vs Z-10 and may be vs KA 52. @Signalian Because MI-28 was offered by Russia way back in IDEAS 2016 along with PANTSIR and TOR and BUK M3 Air Defence System

In Mi-28,- you, me and Tipu7 can also go for a ride - what i mean to say is it has 3 x passenger carrying capability.

 

[Zarvan]

In Mi-28,- you, me and Tipu7 can also go for a ride - what i mean to say is it has 3 x passenger carrying capability.

MI-28 faced issues in Syria. But Russia is working resolve them.