Pakistan Army's T-129 ATAK Helicopter Deal | Updates & Discussions.

[xbat]

i think TAI wouldnt like to lose a costumer so they would integrate new TEI engine on ATAK and test it with pakistani pilots before due date of agreement.

 

[KapitaanAli]

Those who're talking about Rooivalk should think about why the program has been in shambles. Pakistan will have to invest in Denel much more than what Turkey did with AW, since AW already had the full helicopter ready, with lower import content than that of Rooivalk.

And then you can wait years.

 

[PAR 5]

I think due to the circumstances we seem to be heading in this direction. or maybe rooivalk can be re-visited.

Rooivalk was never an option, the South Africans after having a bad experience of not being able to sell the mobile Howitzer will be extremely reluctant to provide a free helicopter for trials in Pakistan

 

[Baybars Han]

It's not as easy as that. It's not plug and play let's change engine

Unfortunately Turkish are making us fool.
why they are not offering an alternative western engine for T-129.

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

Not to mention, they are already getting refurbished in Pakistan

Can we upgrade them to S standad?

 

[nomi007]

It's not as easy as that. It's not plug and play let's change engine

why Turkish are not integrating Russian & European engine variant

 

[Mrc]

why Turkish are not integrating Russian & European engine variant

Thats a valid question

 

[xbat]

why Turkish are not integrating Russian & European engine variant

firstly, it is not rejected by the US government officially yet.
secondly , size, performance , reliability , economy etc very important, for example russian engines are junk, their engines have too much IR signature which is cause to target for IR guided missiles, IR suppressors doesnt work well for them. you can fly a helicopter with them but high performance modern heli engine is a bit different. European options are also limited and prone to sanctions too

 

[dBSPL]

why Turkish are not integrating Russian & European engine variant

1- Because Turkey is focused on entirely own(or fully authorized) intellectual properties solutions, due to other future platform plannings. TEI, TRmotor, Tümosan, BMC etc. I think the largest funding support is being used for the engine industries currently. Overcoming this problem forever is now the most important priority of the SSB. Also There are many strategic partnerships with both the UK and Ukraine.

2- TS1400 program exceeded expectations. It is likely to be the most successful project in the history of Turkish defense industry to date. This pushed the other options into the background.

 

[BHarwana]

Pakistan has extended Turkey's deadline to deliver T-129

The helos are coming.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Those who're talking about Rooivalk should think about why the program has been in shambles. Pakistan will have to invest in Denel much more than what Turkey did with AW, since AW already had the full helicopter ready, with lower import content than that of Rooivalk.

And then you can wait years.

IIRC most of the Rooivalk's development cost was written down after the 1990s. The project Denel is proposing is basically (1) reviving the manufacturing line and (2) upgrading the platform. The intended upgrades are primarily in terms of electronics and munitions, but the airframe and engine will remain the same. So, the net-cost (after write-down) shouldn't be as much as the T129. Even the engine is an old (but still produced) platform (Makila).

That said, if the costs are higher, then that is the cost of bringing an attack helicopter production line to Pakistan, especially a heavyweight platform for anti-armour operations. It's a cost we will run into eventually, just as the PAF had run into with regard to fighters (twice now). Yes, it'll push procurement back by a few years, but our GHQ has a policy of de-escalation, affording us space for this kind of development.

India is building a solid mix of lightweight (5-6 ton) and heavyweight (10+ ton) attack helicopters via the LUH and Apache, respectively. I'd much rather we counter this disproportionately by building a large fleet (120+) of 9-10+ ton attack helicopters. The procurement cost is higher, but with a local production line we can stream a low-rate induction (5~6 helicopters a year).

 

[KapitaanAli]

IIRC most of the Rooivalk's development cost was written down after the 1990s. The project Denel is proposing is basically (1) reviving the manufacturing line and (2) upgrading the platform. The intended upgrades are primarily in terms of electronics and munitions, but the airframe and engine will remain the same. So, the net-cost (after write-down) shouldn't be as much as the T129. Even the engine is an old (but still produced) platform (Makila).

That said, if the costs are higher, then that is the cost of bringing an attack helicopter production line to Pakistan, especially a heavyweight platform for anti-armour operations. It's a cost we will run into eventually, just as the PAF had run into with regard to fighters (twice now). Yes, it'll push procurement back by a few years, but our GHQ has a policy of de-escalation, affording us space for this kind of development.

India is building a solid mix of lightweight (5-6 ton) and heavyweight (10+ ton) attack helicopters via the LUH and Apache, respectively. I'd much rather we counter this disproportionately by building a large fleet (120+) of 9-10+ ton attack helicopters. The procurement cost is higher, but with a local production line we can stream a low-rate induction (5~6 helicopters a year).

I'm talking about Denel having to localize the imported content themselves first. They're dependent on Eurocopter/Airbus for vital components, aren't they? Much worse than what AW imported for A129. Airbus would rather sell their own helis.

You always say LUH instead of LCH, I think. LUH is the Light Utility Helicopter.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I'm talking about Denel having to localize the imported content themselves first. They're dependent on Eurocopter/Airbus for vital components, aren't they? Much worse than what AW imported for A129. Airbus would rather sell their own helis.

You always say LUH instead of LCH, I think. LUH is the Light Utility Helicopter.

Yep -- LCH*

The Rooivalk relies on Safran's engines and some critical inputs from Airbus. But Airbus doesn't offer a heavyweight attack helicopter like the Rooivalk, while the Tiger is on the wind-down. There was a conflict of interest back in the early 2000s, but not so much now. If anything, Airbus might try pushing the Super Puma or Caracal (which are in some ways related to the Rooivalk) before helping with the Rooivalk. Pakistan has old Sea Kings and Pumas...

 

[Baybars Han]

why Turkish are not integrating Russian & European engine variant

Because you need to change the whole package, not just the engine. It means change of design because of change of weight, performance paramaters etc

 

[BHarwana]

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