Pakistan Army's T-129 ATAK Helicopter Deal | Updates & Discussions.

[Chimgathar]

The only part TA-129 is better than Z-10 is using an American engine... Other than that, there is no better. But it will be remedy by the upgraded Z-10ME.

Atak T-129 is an advanced version of Italian Agusta A129 Mangusta, it can fire Hellfire missiles, BGm71 TOW missiles, Rocketsan Cirit rockets, AIM 92 Stingers, or AIM 9 Sidewinder missiles (now would you say all these listed munitions are inferior to Chinese counterparts?). Atak T-129 is superior and more advanced then Z-10 in every imaginable aspect possible besides the engine. Plus Atak T-129 is also battle proven, Italy and Turkey have regularly used the helo in the frontline assisting their troops. Also PA selected Atak T-129 over Z-10.
I am not saying Z-10 is a bad helo but its one of first Atack helo Programs by PLA and it will take time to mature.

 

[Beast]

Atak T-129 is an advanced version of Italian Agusta A129 Mangusta, it can fire Hellfire missiles, BGm71 TOW missiles, Rocketsan Cirit rockets, AIM 92 Stingers, or AIM 9 Sidewinder missiles (now would you say all these listed munitions are inferior to Chinese counterparts?). Atak T-129 is superior and more advanced then Z-10 in every imaginable aspect possible besides the engine. Plus Atak T-129 is also battle proven, Italy and Turkey have regularly used the helo in the frontline assisting their troops. Also PA selected Atak T-129 over Z-10.
I am not saying Z-10 is a bad helo but its one of first Atack helo Programs by PLA and it will take time to mature.

You think Z-10 don those kind of missile? What you mention are not something new... We have the Chinese equivalent for Z-10. You know very little of Z-10, i advise you from commenting refrain from one side comment regard to T-129 vs Z-10ME. The only reason PA select T-129 is becos of the more powerful engine but extract that out.. It will be nothing. Its no point going for T-129. Engine is american, domestic version is no where near delivered.

 

[GriffinsRule]

As has been mentioned many times over, once the Turkish-US spat is over, we will get the T-129. A six month or even a year's delay is nothing given that we just signed the deal a few months ago.

So I think we can stop with the panic mode for now and just wait and see how thing develop. Turkey might very well give up on the S-400 in 6 months, you never know what might happen with the political climate.

 

[Foxtrot Delta]

As has been mentioned many times over, once the Turkish-US spat is over, we will get the T-129. A six month or even a year's delay is nothing given that we just signed the deal a few months ago.

So I think we can stop with the panic mode for now and just wait and see how thing develop. Turkey might very well give up on the S-400 in 6 months, you never know what might happen with the political climate.

What i fear is turkey might even loose f-35s things look bad cuz of trump.

 

[Trango Towers]

U mean to say we bent over by our free will for the engines
Court marshal is due on someone

Makes sense

• F16 blocked
• OHP blocked
• F16 blocked again
• Cutters blocked
• T129 Engines blocked

Whats worse is with all the american bullshit they havent been told in the media how blocking suxh things effects our war efforts. Politicians and military are weak in this respect

 

[cabatli_53]

I do not blame them but the Turkish. They make empty promise to Pakistanis that engine is not an issue and Indigenous engine is ready soon which prove to be false.

Turkish like to talk big but far from delivery. That is the problem when dealing military deal with them. Many of their system is overstated.

Dude, I am really tired of your big head delusional statements in Turkey related threads. Turkey doesn’t talk big but acting smart in technological matters. The painful reality that you can not accept, is a Muslim country called Turkey with 80 million population develop state of art competitive technological systems which is proven superior on many field (after harsh environmental trials) against the products developed by a country with 1,4 billion polulation. Instead of finding excuses to attack Turks and Turkish products at every likely scenarios, check your inferior and cheap systems to improve their capability. Self-criticizm is a nice behavior to improve your skills instead of attacking your rivals. You are good at isolated markets but Noone in Pakistan obliged to purchase less capable products so do not play smart with your big head as if you know something that Pakistan and Turkish officials do not know.

 

[-------]

You think Z-10 don those kind of missile? What you mention are not something new... We have the Chinese equivalent for Z-10. You know very little of Z-10, i advise you from commenting refrain from one side comment regard to T-129 vs Z-10ME. The only reason PA select T-129 is becos of the more powerful engine but extract that out.. It will be nothing. Its no point going for T-129. Engine is american, domestic version is no where near delivered.

I'm sorry to bruise your over inflated pride, but, T-129 has one thing and perhaps the most important, it's battle proven with scores of terrorists neutralised by it in a high threat MANPAD infested environments. Battle proof your Z-10ME then come to the big boys table.

 

[CriticalThought]

Dude, I am really tired of your big head delusional statements in Turkey related threads. Turkey doesn’t talk big but acting smart in technological matters. The painful reality that you can not accept, is a Muslim country called Turkey with 80 million population develop state of art competitive technological systems which is proven superior on many field (after harsh environmental trials) against the products developed by a country with 1,4 billion polulation. Instead of finding escuse to attack Turks and Turkish products at every likely scenarios, check your inferior and cheap systems to improve their capability. You are good at isolated markets but Noone in Pakistan obliged to purchase your less capable products so do not play smart with your big head as if you, delusional fanboys, know something that Pakistan and Turkish officials do not know. Just care your own business.

@Beast

Gentlemen. I think this is a moment when we should realize the common enemy and form a confluence of interests. Take a lesson from Western nations. No matter their differences, they will unite in arms against a common enemy. It would be good if we can find a cooperative solution in this discussion. No need to increase animosity.

 

[CHI RULES]

Whats worse is with all the american bullshit they havent been told in the media how blocking suxh things effects our war efforts. Politicians and military are weak in this respect

In tech still USA is leading the world, even EU countries. In current scenario once we get JF17 block 3 with superior gadgets USA shall be ready to offer upgrades for F16s if Pak can afford them with full payment through own sources. Previously release of OHPs were conditioned with release of Dr Afridi, so deal can be made if Pak interested, however they shall require major overhaul.The single OHP, Pak so far has not got any major overhaul and is mostly a sitting duck without any SAM coverage. Every nation which provides you discounted/ credit based supplies shall have major leverage whether it's USA or China.

 

[cabatli_53]

T-129 is a battle proven in Syria and Iraqi operations. Helicopter received many bullets in total but achieved mission succesfully. Hundreds of terrorists have been neutralized by T-129. We lost just one helicopter in Syria cause of engine failure.

That is the video taken by terrorist camera and shared by YPG press. Atak helicopters achieved their missions while bullets were raining. That is about trust of Turkish pilots to own machine.

 

[Trango Towers]

In tech still USA is leading the world, even EU countries. In current scenario once we get JF17 block 3 with superior gadgets USA shall be ready to offer upgrades for F16s if Pak can afford them with full payment through own sources. Previously release of OHPs were conditioned with release of Dr Afridi, so deal can be made if Pak interested, however they shall require major overhaul.The single OHP, Pak so far has not got any major overhaul and is mostly a sitting duck without any SAM coverage. Every nation which provides you discounted/ credit based supplies shall have major leverage whether it's USA or China.

problem is we donts who dont understand that we hold they key to Afghanistan. we can make their life hell and should be doing it. charge for every bullet. then they will play ball. those of us that grew up in the west competed in the west understand the west know they only understand the language of strength. there are no friends. its all about money

 

[dBSPL]

Personally, the Z-10 is a helicopter that I like very much. If the narrow silhouette and the promised maneuverability can be combined with high-level ECM systems, the benefit will be a highly successful attack helicopter in terms of cost.

As far as I know, the infrastructure of the Z-10 system goes back to the early 90s. The program was officially launched in 1998. The helicopter made its first flight in 2002 or 2003. The introduction to service and the low-intensity production phase is 2012 I guess. In other words, there is a 20-year study.

On the basis of the year of service, 2012, which foreign military tender did it successfully complete? Which tender has it won? How many countries are currently engaged in purchase negotiations? My last and most important question is, which helicopter was actively used in war or military operation? Software testing and soaped engineering analyzes may not always work under real conditions(May be this is why CAIC send new configuration to Pakistan). For this reason, while the Z-10 is a great engineering work but also must be a combat-proven platform to strengthen its international competitiveness.

 

[CHI RULES]

It's funny to read foolish comments by senior members of our two allied Countries as one calling other's products inferior. The fact is Turkish and Chinese both have capable R & D facilities along with required manpower. If on one hand China has edge in manufacturing engines, finished products so do Turkey in collaborations with USA/EU so they have absorbed these superior techs and know further developing them. As per T129 and Z10ME both on surface are comparable in most aspects. The word battle proven is tricky thing. The previous version of Z10 was used in FATA area of Pak against terrorists so considering Z10Me is next version it should have better qualities than previous version.
As per T129 selection at time of selection the T129 was perhaps found to be as per requirements of PA so chosen, no big issue. Further even if Turkey gets any embargo from USA they have other options for engines Pak will get their required numbers. If one wants to prove the superiority of their development should prove it with facts.

 

[Beast]

Dude, I am really tired of your big head delusional statements in Turkey related threads. Turkey doesn’t talk big but acting smart in technological matters. The painful reality that you can not accept, is a Muslim country called Turkey with 80 million population develop state of art competitive technological systems which is proven superior on many field (after harsh environmental trials) against the products developed by a country with 1,4 billion polulation. Instead of finding excuses to attack Turks and Turkish products at every likely scenarios, check your inferior and cheap systems to improve their capability. Self-criticizm is a nice behavior to improve your skills instead of attacking your rivals. You are good at isolated markets but Noone in Pakistan obliged to purchase less capable products so do not play smart with your big head as if you know something that Pakistan and Turkish officials do not know.

Finally you speak, I am all the while waiting for you to reply. The big head, egotistic and over promise all exposed are all the trait of Turkish characteristic. Before you say I accused you Turkish, let me show you a thread.

Pentagon Moves Closer To Cutting Turkey's Role In The F-35 Program If It Buys S-400 SAMs

Look at all the chest thumping bravado reply of the turkish members, bragging about how they going to defy US and gets S-400? Didnt the same Turkish who ate humble pie earlier when the same Turkish release the US pastor without condition after bragging how they going to defy US threat?

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/turkey-frees-pastor-andrew-brunson.581523/#post-10858452

Turkish new amphibious ship is even build around F-35, without F-35. The ship will loses half its capabilities and not to mention billion of dollars already sink in.....

I hope Pakistanis can see clearly you are dealing with a group of people who talk big but deliver little. The poeple who let nationalistic rule over their head over reality. There is one Pakistanis member even asking about why top planner for procurement of gunship for PA never think of the possible scenario that T-129 gunship will suffer sanction by US due to the US engine. Then you need to think deep, its all due to Turkish side who overpromise of their capabilities and leverage for US engine for T-129. They act irrationally, completely overestimate their zero leverage on any matters regards to American foreign policy and military procurement and result the delay and disaster of the breakdown of PA gunship deal.

Unlike China for JF-17 cooperation. Has China ever disappointed to Pakistanis side for this project? We are now even going into blk 3 of AESA in 2021 when the past threat of India sanction of RD-93 engine re export from Russia. China made the promise of no sanction possible from Russia and delivered as stated. Chinese do things based on possible reality , within capabilities and never overpromised like some particular country....

@Beast

Gentlemen. I think this is a moment when we should realize the common enemy and form a confluence of interests. Take a lesson from Western nations. No matter their differences, they will unite in arms against a common enemy. It would be good if we can find a cooperative solution in this discussion. No need to increase animosity.

Pakistan and China has common enemy but Turkey is not able to freed themselves from US clutches. Turkey as part of NATO walks a different path from us. Pakistan trying to depend on Turkey is a recipe waiting for disaster as prove in this T-129 gunship deal.

 

[CriticalThought]

Pakistan and China has common enemy but Turkey is not able to freed themselves from US clutches. Turkey as part of NATO walks a different path from us. Pakistan trying to depend on Turkey is a recipe waiting for disaster as prove in this T-129 gunship deal.

Success in an increasingly multi-polar lies in multilateral ties. The more countries come within the sphere of influence of China-Pak-Russia partnership, the more it benefits us. But people will not gravitate towards us through animosity. This is a moment of setback for the Turks. This is the time to offer help, instead of mocking them. That's how people come closer to you.