Pakistan Army Information

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

If I am reading this correctly---some of the awards are for officers and others for non commissioned officers---and that is during war---then let me say this---it is absolutely disgusting, rascist, discriminatory and prejudicial in their appearance.

Officers sh-it don't stink any different at the time of war as that of the soldier---I for one---when I am next time coming face to face with my soldier---would feel absolutely ashamed.

 

[Xeric]

Hi,

If I am reading this correctly---some of the awards are for officers and others for non commissioned officers---and that is during war---then let me say this---it is absolutely disgusting, rascist, discriminatory and prejudicial in their appearance.

Officers sh-it don't stink any different at the time of war as that of the soldier---I for one---when I am next time coming face to face with my soldier---would feel absolutely ashamed.

MK i hope your car sale is going well as i doubt it...lolzzz.

i never wanted to counter you on this but then i thought let me attempt once.

How many times have you seen in a private firm that some executive officer is given the 'employee of the month' thingy?

There are different ways of motivating different people. Do you think your boss would be motivated and fee honored if he os given an extra pair of uniform (the company uniform)? i guess not, but a worker would sure be happy on this. Awards which are specifically for the Non-Officer Cadre has nothing to do with "being disgusting, rascist, discriminatory and prejudicial in their appearance" as a very different requirement has to be met to get them. Some light on those requirements:

1)If a soldier donate blood he has it written in his file and is adds to his chances to get that non-officer cadre (NOC) award.

Officers also donate blood, may be the % is more as compared to the soldiers, but it doesnt matter to them and it is not mentioned as an achievement in their dossiers. They have no bearing on SJ, NH or some other award. Being an officer i understand that donating blood would not kill me, but our many less educated and less aware brothers are so afraid of giving blood that they shiver. It is just because they dont know the facts, they think if they gonna donate blood they will get weak etc etc. i have seen such situations. i bet you had also. Go to a village and ask for blood, i doubt many would be happy. i have donated blood atleast twice, and it took me a complete day to get my grandfather convince that there is nothing wrong in it and it would not affect my health. Officers dont require motivation in form of points earned through blood donations, i hope you dont want the next COAS who has risen up just by donating blood

2)If a soldier wants to get more educations he is always welcomed, but the problem is how many of us would love to get more educated once we have started doing a job? The minimum intake is a matriculate, we do have FA/FSc and graduates as soldiers. Now if a soldier who was matric when he joined wants to do FA he sure is praised and if he succeeds he is awarded points which would lead him to get a NOC Award.

Now you dont want that the Officers should also be dealt similarly. Many many many officers have done atleast Masters after joining the Army, there is a huge number who have done MBAs, we have Masters in Pol science, IR, Strat Studies, Metallurgy etc etc, there are many who have done their M Phil and PhDs. Officers dont require the 'point system' to get them motivated to acquire more education because they know themselves that more education would always be better for them. But then you dont want the next COAS to be all degrees

3)There are other things also but i would not talk about them.

So these NOC awards are there for a reason and are not discriminatory. If someone wants to understand. You missed that most of the awards are for everyone and there is no award specific to the Officer Cadre but one odd non commissioned awards made you think that the military has gone racist!

 

[fatman17]

World Armies - Pakistan

some key points from a recent update...

.....however, the Pakistan Army has been funded by the US for many years and is currently channelling funds from Washington via a new Pakistan Counter Insurgency Capability Fund (PCCF). the amount of funds being offered are ~US$ 700 mill.......

......as these debates continue, Pakistan has a requirement to procure and modernise its Main Battle Tank (MBT) fleet. This is particularly important as India is manufacturing 1,300 T-90 MBTs and Islamabad needs to maintain parity with New Delhi's armoured developments. Ideally the Pakistan Army requires another 1,200 Al-Khalid MBTs to ensure the Strike Corps and other armoured formations are operating at maximum strength. However, budgetary constraints suggest that should the MBTs be ordered, they would be acquired in small batches rather than all at once......

 

[MastanKhan]

MK i hope your car sale is going well as i doubt it...lolzzz.

i never wanted to counter you on this but then i thought let me attempt once.

How many times have you seen in a private firm that some executive officer is given the 'employee of the month' thingy?

There are different ways of motivating different people. Do you think your boss would be motivated and fee honored if he os given an extra pair of uniform (the company uniform)? i guess not, but a worker would sure be happy on this. Awards which are specifically for the Non-Officer Cadre has nothing to do with "being disgusting, rascist, discriminatory and prejudicial in their appearance" as a very different requirement has to be met to get them. Some light on those requirements:

1)If a soldier donate blood he has it written in his file and is adds to his chances to get that non-officer cadre (NOC) award.

Officers also donate blood, may be the % is more as compared to the soldiers, but it doesnt matter to them and it is not mentioned as an achievement in their dossiers. They have no bearing on SJ, NH or some other award. Being an officer i understand that donating blood would not kill me, but our many less educated and less aware brothers are so afraid of giving blood that they shiver. It is just because they dont know the facts, they think if they gonna donate blood they will get weak etc etc. i have seen such situations. i bet you had also. Go to a village and ask for blood, i doubt many would be happy. i have donated blood atleast twice, and it took me a complete day to get my grandfather convince that there is nothing wrong in it and it would not affect my health. Officers dont require motivation in form of points earned through blood donations, i hope you dont want the next COAS who has risen up just by donating blood

2)If a soldier wants to get more educations he is always welcomed, but the problem is how many of us would love to get more educated once we have started doing a job? The minimum intake is a matriculate, we do have FA/FSc and graduates as soldiers. Now if a soldier who was matric when he joined wants to do FA he sure is praised and if he succeeds he is awarded points which would lead him to get a NOC Award.

Now you dont want that the Officers should also be dealt similarly. Many many many officers have done atleast Masters after joining the Army, there is a huge number who have done MBAs, we have Masters in Pol science, IR, Strat Studies, Metallurgy etc etc, there are many who have done their M Phil and PhDs. Officers dont require the 'point system' to get them motivated to acquire more education because they know themselves that more education would always be better for them. But then you dont want the next COAS to be all degrees

3)There are other things also but i would not talk about them.

So these NOC awards are there for a reason and are not discriminatory. If someone wants to understand. You missed that most of the awards are for everyone and there is no award specific to the Officer Cadre but one odd non commissioned awards made you think that the military has gone racist!

Hi,

This all reads like 'humbug'---there must not be any distinction between medals for bravery in combat or combat related service or any time the millitary is called out to serve the people at times of distress---those medals must be the same for all the ranks---.


" MK i hope your car sale is going well as i doubt it...lolzzz ".


Do I understand this comment correctly---are you that cheap of a person---coming from a serving officer---you ought to be ashamed of your self. That is beneath an officer---.

 

[fatman17]

Military Structures

Refrence to military organisations such as divisions, brigades, battalions and so on. there is a wide divergence to national classifications;

Corps - A command HQ that generally commands two or three divisions.

Division - A command HQ usually commanding two or three brigades.

Brigade - A command HQ commanding a fighting formation that might consist of two or three infantry battalions, one or two tank battalions, one artillery battalion and combat support groups. The exact composition of brigades differs widely.

Regiment - Under old Soviet system, a tank regiment or a mortar rifle regiment was roughly equivalent to a NATO style brigade. Some countries still use this system.

In the West the term 'regiment' can refer to widely differing organisations. In the US it can mean a number of battalions. In the UK a single major armoured (cavalry) unit will generally be described as a regiment and, in the majority of cases, a UK infantry regiment consists of two battalions (though not always and there are many variations).

Battalion - this generally refers to an armoured unit with three companies and a battalion HQ, an infantry unit with three companies and a battalion HQ, or a artillery unit with three batteries and a battalion HQ. However, some countries designate their artillery battalions as regiments.

Company - generally consist of three platoons and a platoon HQ. An infantry platoon usually consists of three sections (squads) of eight soldiers commanded by a young officer. A tank platoon (sometimes called a troop) usually consists of three to four tanks and between 12 to 15 personnel. An artillery company (in many countries also called a battery) may have between six and eight guns.

Squadron - many countries use this term to denote a company sized armoured or engineer unit. it is almost always used to describe an army aviation unit with about twelve aircraft.

 

[blain2]

Hi,

If I am reading this correctly---some of the awards are for officers and others for non commissioned officers---and that is during war---then let me say this---it is absolutely disgusting, rascist, discriminatory and prejudicial in their appearance.

Officers sh-it don't stink any different at the time of war as that of the soldier---I for one---when I am next time coming face to face with my soldier---would feel absolutely ashamed.

Some of the awards are indeed as such, however the highest one (NH) has no such classification. Let me add another point to this discussion. There is a practical and fiscal (financial) aspect to the awards as well. Those who are conferred these awards get substantial financial and other tangible benefits. For certain awards, opening it up to all ranks is cost prohibitive.

Secondly, the classification is done across the board. In the UK, the DSO is only conferred on commissioned officers while the others are open to all. VC is open to all ranks, as are NH and Medal of Honour.

 

[Xeric]

Hi,

This all reads like 'humbug'---there must not be any distinction between medals for bravery in combat or combat related service or any time the millitary is called out to serve the people at times of distress---those medals must be the same for all the ranks---.


" MK i hope your car sale is going well as i doubt it...lolzzz ".


Do I understand this comment correctly---are you that cheap of a person---coming from a serving officer---you ought to be ashamed of your self. That is beneath an officer---.

It is strange that you termed my explanations as humbugs.

It is unfortunate that everything cannot be done according to everybody's wish, let alone you. Rules, regulations and restrictions are made after much deliberation and though, if one day someone comes and starts countering and arguing over legit and understandable decisions which can be explained, that's what a humbug would be.

As for the car sale i never knew you were married to cars, sorry if it offended you!

 

[sonicboom]

Hi,

If I am reading this correctly---some of the awards are for officers and others for non commissioned officers---and that is during war---then let me say this---it is absolutely disgusting, rascist, discriminatory and prejudicial in their appearance.

Officers sh-it don't stink any different at the time of war as that of the soldier---I for one---when I am next time coming face to face with my soldier---would feel absolutely ashamed.

The wholesale “bandar bant” is only for officers. All decisions are made at GHQ controlled by officers and Jawans have no saying in any of the decision processes. All those Jawans (NCO’s/JCO’s) who did lay down their lives defending the motherland got next to nothing in the land of pure.

Look at the list below and you will be amazed to see that first 6 Nishan-e-Haider’s were awarded to the officers only. Wonder why? It was not until 1971 war, and after major uproar among the ranks, that 2 Nishan-e-Haider’s were half-heartedly awarded to NCO’s.

1. Captain Muhammad Sarwar (27 July 1948)
2. Major Tufail Muhammad (7 August 1958)
3. Major Raja Aziz Bhatti (10 September 1965)
4. Major Muhammad Akram (1971)
5. Major Shabbir Sharif (6 December 1971)
6. Pilot Officer Rashid Minhas (21 August 1971)
7. Jawan Sawar Muhammad Hussain (10 December 1971)
8. Lance Naik Muhammad Mahfuz (17 December 1971)
9. Captain Karnal Sher Khan (5 July 1999)
10. Lalak Jan (7 July 1999)

(only 3 out of 10 were awarded to NCO's and now compare the ratio of officers to jawans and then you be the judge)

To tell the truth, the inflated army of ours controlled by incompetent officers not only has let us down on the battlefield, but is also causing havoc on the country during the peacetime.

 

[fatman17]

soldiers die yes, but so do officers mostly young officers captains and majors. if one does a research of PA war casaulties, the ratio of officers KIA v. soldiers KIA are the highest in comparison to arms of other countries.

yes i agree that our general staff (barring a few exceptions) do get lock-jaw in the heat of battle and it is the jawans and mid-level officer cadre that has always saved the day for us.

so therefore my dear sonicboom! your comments are un-warranted!!!

 

[sonicboom]

soldiers die yes, but so do officers mostly young officers captains and majors. if one does a research of PA war casaulties, the ratio of officers KIA v. soldiers KIA are the highest in comparison to arms of other countries.

so therefore my dear sonicboom! your comments are un-warranted!!!

Sir you are right.

But do you know why the ratio of young officers of Pakistan Army KIA v. soldiers of Pakistan Army KIA especially the JCO's have been high?

This question was raised after the 1965 Indo-Pak war because of the high causalities suffered by the young officers and it was determined that they died because of their stupidity and lack of experience.

The purpose of the war is to save your life and kill the enemy and not to get killed yourself by standing outside the trenches. The bomb does not care about the ‘jazba’ and the boldness and between an officer and a soldier.

Most of the JCO’s were from 2nd world war and highly experienced and knew how to fight as compared to young officers who lacked the experience and died because of their mistakes.

So my comments were not unwarranted and I always know what I am talking about.

 

[TaimiKhan]

Sonicboom, dont know from where did you got this thinking that officers dont think about the other ranks in PA, as per my experience, in an army unit, the commanding officer & all other officers main priority is their men, are they having a decent meal, are the men sleeping in warm rooms, getting them accommodation to spend sometime with their families, are they getting all the facilities they need, is their grooming being done properly so that a deserving person isn't left behind, and i have seen many cases where these other ranks have been inducted into the officer cadre. These all & many other things are done by the officers sitting in GHQ & in command.

As for officers getting most of the highest award, well if you know about battle little bit, the officers are the ones who lead the troops, these are the ones who are commanding an assault or defence, they have to lead by an example & show bravery, courage & tactfulness, which helps in achieving the objective by the other ranks, and doing so these officers lay down their lives, thats why officers get the most of the highest awards, and your this theory that you put in is totally BS.

As for some of the awards that are just given to officers, these are the peacetime awards not war time awards, NH & ST are other war time awards are open to all, the peace time awards are given to officers who had spend huge numbers of years in serving the army & nation or to officers who had performed exceptionally during peace time when they are given specific tasks.
Just like the Pride of Performance is not given to every citizen, but to those who perform exceptionally in their respective fields, similarly if you see the peacetime awards, most of them are senior rank officers who had performed for over 30 years of services, and other ranks in the army don't serve that long except for a just few who rise to the highest rank in the JCO cadre.

I do hope ur & other peoples misconception about this is clarified, with my & other useful members contribution about the procedure of awarding medals.

 

[fatman17]

Sir you are right.

But do you know why the ratio of young officers of Pakistan Army KIA v. soldiers of Pakistan Army KIA especially the JCO's have been high?

This question was raised after the 1965 Indo-Pak war because of the high causalities suffered by the young officers and it was determined that they died because of their stupidity and lack of experience.

The purpose of the war is to save your life and kill the enemy and not to get killed yourself by standing outside the trenches. The bomb does not care about the ‘jazba’ and the boldness and between an officer and a soldier.

Most of the JCO’s were from 2nd world war and highly experienced and knew how to fight as compared to young officers who lacked the experience and died because of their mistakes.

So my comments were not unwarranted and I always know what I am talking about.

congratulations - u are the first PERFECT person in this world !!!

 

[sonicboom]

Sonicboom, dont know from where did you got this thinking that officers dont think about the other ranks in PA, as per my experience, in an army unit, the commanding officer & all other officers main priority is their men, are they having a decent meal, are the men sleeping in warm rooms, getting them accommodation to spend sometime with their families, are they getting all the facilities they need, is their grooming being done properly so that a deserving person isn't left behind, and i have seen many cases where these other ranks have been inducted into the officer cadre. These all & many other things are done by the officers sitting in GHQ & in command..

My first hand experience and ‘aankhon deekha haal’ based on many years is totally different than what you have described. If that’s the case, then it’s very refreshing to know that things are changing in PA and officers like yourself and others are realizing that ranks are human being too and sometime deserve a better treatment.

Well if you know about battle little bit, the officers are the ones who lead the troops, these are the ones who are commanding an assault or defence, they have to lead by an example & show bravery, courage & tactfulness, which helps in achieving the objective by the other ranks, and doing so these officers lay down their lives, thats why officers get the most of the highest awards, and your this theory that you put in is totally BS.

I would have to disagree with you on that score. By the way, what achieved objectives you are talking about? Could you enlighten me with three starting from 1948?

Yes, there are some exceptions. I hate to open the can of worms as this forum is being read by everyone on the net. I am very well aware of what goes in the regiment day and night and the interaction between officers and soldiers. So don't get me started. I love Pakistan and its armed forces and all I am asking a justice for the ranks.

 

[sonicboom]

congratulations - u are the first PERFECT person in this world !!!

It has nothing to do with perfection. It's the truth and the facts that are causing you and others heart burn.

 

[TaimiKhan]

Sonic, achievements mean the operational issues & objectives during a battle, public just knows the outcomes of wars & battles, they dont know the teeny tiny things that lead to the outcome of a battles, so doesn't many of us here on this forum.
As for your aankon dekha haal, well our army aren't farishtay nor a perfect one, they are human being so it means they make bad choices also, bad and good officers might be every where, what you might have seen is a case of a bad officer, who then gets what he deserves for his immoral acts, but by & far, the officer cadre of PA is much much better then many of the other army officers in treating their lower ranks. When an officer joins any unit, the reason for his spending the starting couple of months with ORs is due to this fact, that an officer comes to know how these men live & how it is like to be them. This young officer who lives with them isn't allowed to enter the officers mess or eat in it for his stay, this is a psychological exercise for the officers to consider these soldiers as humans, which an officer very well does. But agreed, there might be black sheep in the officer ranks, and who doesn't.
And there are no truths causing any heart burn, this is an open forum, truth is welcome, but request is don't take things too pessimistically, there are good things in army also, and have done bad, may be some very bad things too. Decision makers are not perfect, but those who make decisions, don't blame their doing on all of the army guys.
And if you wanna open any Pandora Box of accusations, you are welcome, as arguing over here might make people better understand what the reality is and will also make you make a change in your thinking.