Pakistan Army has 570 VT 4 on order and with TOT

[AlKardai]

Yes and that's why the whole world is moving towards reducing armour and increasing drones. Stupid them hey! What do they know when we have PDF experts

Arguing with you is pointless.

 

[Trango Towers]

Legacy soviet AD stands no chance against modern threats.
View attachment 926097

Take a look at Armenian losses, the majority being OSA. The Armenians also used the 9M33 missile, a very, very poor missile by todays standards. The Ukrainians are just receiving them now and are claiming 50% pK with them, that's with experienced, hardened operators (unlike the Armenians.) The 9M33 missile has a maximum engagement altitude of like 16,000ft. This gave literal impunity to anything flying even remotely above that altitude, such as the magical drones you keep going on about.

In the case of Tor MK2M, it was a weird one, the system was killed indoors, it was driving, went into a building, hit by a harop. I am not sure of the other one as i cannot particularly be bothered to look it up because it changes nothing.

The real lesson from Armenia is this:
Provide adequate coverage for your ground formations, otherwise, if you don't, the gaps will be exploited. That is it.

It's amazing how you who has zero military experience know more than experts who actually spend money on weapons.
Western nations are reducing their reliance on big ticket tanks and moving towards highly mobile and agile drones. But you know more than any expert.
No country can guarantee or have adequate air defence cover. Loops will be founds and exploited.
Russia is portrayed AD incompetent but its nit fighting Ukraine its fighting NATO

Arguing with you is pointless.

Yes...arguing is pointless. Why would yiu argue.

 

[Princeps Senatus]

Yes and that's why the whole world is moving towards reducing armour

Are they? give one example. Just look at the current war, why is Ukraine practically begging for more MBTs everyday? Why is Russia talking about ramping up T-90M production?

 

[AlKardai]

Yes...arguing is pointless. Why would yiu argue.

We've presented you with the facts. Many military experts will agree with me in this matter @jhungary @PanzerKiel

The tank is not obsolete. Rather, it is still the core of the battle space when used properly.

 

[SaadH]

Both in Ukraine and Armenia, tanks were not used adequately in combined arms warfare.

It's a well documented fact that the Armenians failed miserably in combined arms warfare due to poor training and bad use of terrain.
Nagorno Karabakh is terrible tank terrain anyway.


As for Russia in Ukraine, their tank doctrines were thrown out of the window. You would often see lone tanks charging enemy positions without infantry support or even air support for that matter. A tank can only be eliminated by an ATGM if the infantry have not done their job, or are not present. Javelins essentially become useless if infantry is advancing at an adequate distance in front of the tank column to clear the routes from mines and ambushes.

In Ukraine entire tank columns were decimated in transit or sitting idle in safe zones, which will be be case with loitering munitions and drones buzzing around.

 

[AlKardai]

In Ukraine entire tank columns were decimated in transit or sitting idle in safe zones, which will be be case with loitering munitions and drones buzzing around.

And for what reason?

Neither anti air was used or Air supremacy was established.

The RuAF Is not even active in Ukraine and you are using this conflict as a "valid" example on why tank are obsolete, when rather it is proving the importance of combined arms warfare

 

[Trango Towers]

Are they? give one example. Just look at the current war, why is Ukraine practically begging for more MBTs everyday? Why is Russia talking about ramping up T-90M production?

Bro Ukraine is using WW1 machine guns.
Ukraine I getting missiles that don't work
Ukraine is getting jets that are at the end of their life.

Basically Ukraine will have anything they can get.

Also aside from upgrades to existing inventory what major tanks are developing in the west?

We've presented you with the facts. Many military experts will agree with me in this matter @jhungary @PanzerKiel

The tank is not obsolete. Rather, it is still the core of the battle space when used properly.

I didn't say its obsolete
But its not what it was even 5 years ago

And for what reason?

Neither anti air was used or Air supremacy was established.

The RuAF Is not even active in Ukraine and you are using this conflict as a "valid" example on why tank are obsolete, when rather it is proving the importance of combined arms warfare

Russian airforce has been totally useless and it shows why arabs have performed badly in the middle east under Russian training tactics and equipment

 

[farooqbhai007]

What that literally makes no sense. Ukrain literally had 30+ s300 batteries alone at the onset of the war…. Now they have dozens of advanced western sam systems are well. Incompetence is a part of the story but you cant discount Ukraines air defence umbrella

"Had 30+ s300 batteries" Having system in inventory versus a system being actually operational are quite different. Most Ukrainian AD assets wete in deep storage as was the case for tanks and pretty much every other stuff in their inventory. Bringing them back to life required a lot of expense and in some cases the equipment wasn't just operational anymore. Just see the news articles prior to invasion. Ever since 2014 Ukrainians were overhauling and bringing old equipment back to life because most of there inventory was non usable.

 

[Mav3rick]

By this time our Tank industry should have been self reliant. We should have had enough invested in R&D to not only produce for ourselves but also export to other 3rd world countries.

 

[alimobin memon]

By this time our Tank industry should have been self reliant. We should have had enough invested in R&D to not only produce for ourselves but also export to other 3rd world countries.

Respected brother,

HIT is self reliant enough. Many core components like era, composites are build in HIT only engine is the issue. Afaik even sights are now built here.

 

[Mav3rick]

Respected brother,

HIT is self reliant enough. Many core components like era, composites are build in HIT only engine is the issue. Afaik even sights are now built here.

But we are importing entire units from China, VT-4's are entire units, no?

 

[KaiserX]

Again, S300P batteries from once upon a time ago. You are once again asking something of a system that it was not designed to do. The reference threat back when the S300P was designed was fighters. The way we keep our systems relevant for different threats is software and hardware upgrades, neither of which Ukrainian s300p's received- i assume as they were stored.

The S300 was evolved multiple times to stay relevant with the threats of the time. This is why the S400 also receives multiple missile types to ensure it is able to intercept a wider array of targets. Even then, it relies on shorter ranged systems like TOR, Pantsir etc to provide protection for itself, because, it was designed for a different purpose- wide area AAW.

They have dozens of modern western sam systems now, on which they dont have huuge amounts of experience on, but even then, seem to be taking care of the drone threat pretty well now. Significant numbers of shaheds are being knocked out of the sky, the high profile large scale attacks we saw in the start no longer occur. Whats the point you're making? Because what i said still stands, you arent seeing much air force activity, therefore the airspace is largely open to whoever wants to use it, with bubbles of AD over certain areas, because you cant get a well designed IADS like we have and potentially the Indians have overnight.


oh and PS, against these kind of threats, guns work the best, that is why you will see the PA/PAF adopting a solution similar to Pantsir or the Chinese, with Guns and Missiles on a single chassis, providing interception capabilities for higher altitude drones and also LM's in their terminal stages by literally throwing up a cloud of tungsten.

I still dont get what your point is… so what S300 is a few decades all? Same can be said for 90% of equipment in almost all militaries. Ukraine id even utilizing is 50+ year old SA-2s to fend off russian aircrafts/helis…

Pak itself has most weapon systems decades all. Fact is Ukraine had an extensive SAM system before the war. Not many countries have 30+ long range SAM calibres…

Lastly Ukraine has shown that even its older S300s are capable of targetting and taking out Russian cruise missiles and drones. On a few occaisions even ballistic missiles were successfully hit by both side via the S300. If anything this war has shown that SAM systems no matter how obsolete are extremely useful.

You keep claiming Ukraines success is due to russian air force incompetetance which is just 1 side of the story. If Russians had achieved air superiority (which they did not due to ukraines SAM) then they would take Kiev within a month especially with the large air force that they have.

 

[Dazzler]

Sejjeel vs old apfsds side by side

PA armor is now officially a long rod penetrator user. It's an elite club in it's own right.

 

[Tomcats]

Just wondering why our Pakistan army have never trialed the Chinese light tank Vt-5 designed and made for mountain warfare like Kashmir

Kashmir isn't exactly tank friendly terrain

 

[iLION12345_1]

I think the PA and PAF drone focus is on surveillance as far as the East is concerned while the strike element is secondary.

It would have seemed so yes, but as PK said, that was only because Surveillance UAVs are easier to make and acquire. With Shahpar 2, TB2, WL2 and especially Akinci, such is no longer the case.

But we are importing entire units from China, VT-4's are entire units, no?

For now yes. Until local production is established.

India does not field heavy tanks as such, surely this would not be necessary?

Tanks such as the Arjun are low in number, and T90s don't require specialised shells as such to pop

T90S is significantly better protected than Arjun, and despite the reluctance of many on this forum, it’s also better protected from nearly every angle than the Al-Khalid or Al-Khalid-1. Only the VT4 surpasses the T90S in protection in the subcontinent.

That being said, the advantage in ammunition PA has had since the late 90s has basically made the T90S increased protection rather irrelevant.

India has not purchased modern MBTs yet, but when it decides to, it will have them in much greater numbers and much quicker than the PA, so it’s absolutely necessary to plan ahead.