Pakistan 'army air strike kills dozens of civilians'

[ramu]

I believe the word of a Doctor than any press agency or spin machine.

May Allah give the innocent , men, women and children injured sabr from their own country which has attacked them instead of protected them.

As for this intelligence failure, heads need to roll. If this village decides to join the TTP now, how can we blame them? We need to compensate them for their losses starting with a public apology from the prime minister.

It is unlikely that a large number of militants will concentrate in one area given the predator drones, ISI and PAF. Hope I m wrong but the more the collateral damage the harder it will be to normalise these areas.

 

[Windjammer]

I don't have to prove my identity to anybody. Asking questions is not a crime. You don't have an answer that is why you question the questioner. Pakistan military is not God that we cannot question its motives and actions.

Can you recall how many Canadians or for that matter other ISAF troops have been killed by the Americans in the so called friendly fire incidents. This despite all their hi-tech gadgetry and a very remote chance of friendly and foes sheltering under one roof as is the dilemma often facing the Pakistani forces. And since you frivolously question the morality of Pakistan Army, a reminder is in place that this operation was conducted by the Pakistan Air Force.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Channels of course are keeping mum on the issue, so as not to raise a negative opinion which could harm the public's resolution of eliminating the TTP.

And I hope they continue to stay mum given that we have people like Fundamentalist, Shining eyes and Nahraf who will use one accident to malign the entire war and the entire military, just so their blue eyed boys the Taliban get to 'live to whip and butcher' another day.

---------- Post added at 01:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:04 PM ----------

It is unlikely that a large number of militants will concentrate in one area given the predator drones, ISI and PAF.

How do you think they run training camps then?

Are they naturally endowed with the ability to plan and coordinate complex assaults on Military targets consisting of hundreds of insurgents at times?

 

[deckingraj]

So would you prefer that the Taliban be allowed to whip your mother and sister in the street after dragging them out of their homes?

Would you prefer that your father and brothers are butchered and their headless corpses hung from street lamps in town squares with no one allowed to to touch them till the corpses rot?

Would you prefer that the Taliban be allowed to set off suicide bombings in marketplaces killing thousands of civilians whose bodies cannot be identified because they have been blown to bits?

The casualties are regrettable, but they are also an accident, and a rare one at that.

The GoP should make amends and greater care should be taken in the future, but none of that eliminates the necessity of fighting this war and destroying the Taliban. They are criminals and terrorists and since local law enforcement is incapable of dealing with them at this point, the military has to be used.

Agno i am sure you would agree that Army job is to protect borders....This is the best role they are suited for....Indian as well as Pakistani army basic training do not include urban warfare(I mean tackling with insurgency in urban areas)....When you involve your Army who is not trained in Urban Warfare there would always be collateral damage...This would be wrong to say that such incidents are rare(Yes incidents of this audacity might be rarest of rare) but i would be surprised to know that there are not significant civilian casualities when PA is conducting these operations...

Anyways i believe this(civilian casulities) makes the whole operation super complex....No one has a clear idea of what is the best solution...An all out Iron hand, Peace Deals with Taliban, Iron hand accompanied by peace deals etc etc....We all know that unless and Until populace support is not taken away Taliban can not be defeated...Let me share with you the situation that we are facing viz-a-viz Moist(they are not as deadly as Taliban however our situation is as complex as this one)...

- As said you need to kill the populace support to win over insurgency
- The only way can win pupulace support by bringing in development
- However no one is ready to invest in areas where there is no security...For instance : No one will start factories in such area, no one will build roads, no one will open Schools, hospitals etc etc....In short unless and until you do not bring in peace in such areas it is hard for you to bring in development...
- To achieve peace state moves in Armed Forces who unfortunately are not well trained to take on these insurgents in their own den...
- Armed forces get some setbacks and compensate for their lack of training by lowering their standards of operation and end up causing collateral damage...
- Result : the very support you wanted to kill you end up adding fuel to it....Also because of your sub-standard trainig(as per the requirement) and sub-standard procedure you are not able to bring in absolute peace to the place.... In other words neither you killed the popoulace support nor you could bring in absolute peace implying once you move out insurgency will come back to business... all you achieved is a temporary lull....


So IMO yours situations is somewhat similar to this apart from the fact that Taliban is far more effective and deadly terrorists...however both are very complex situation to tackle...yes i agree that PA has no choice but to fight...However are they helping by fighting or making things more troublesome only time will tell...

They are criminals and terrorists and since local law enforcement is incapable of dealing with them at this point, the military has to be used.

That pretty much sums it all...There is no way PA can back out from this operation..Unfortunate but true this is the need of the hour...It would have been great had this situation been prevented earlier but now it is too late to repent on mistakes of Past...However there is an urgent need to ensure Local Law enforcement is strengthened so that they can deliver the job once Army clears the area....This IMO is very important and is something in which India failed miserably(though things are changing) when it comes to Kashmir....

History tells us that prolonged Army presence in civilian Area is destined to be a disaster...Anyways i wish no such incidents take place and good luck with your fight on terror!!!!

 

[Windjammer]

@Windjammer:- Major newspapers reported that very day, including The News, Dawn and Daily Times. Channels of course are keeping mum on the issue, so as not to raise a negative opinion which could harm the public's resolution of eliminating the TTP.

Sir, they very well may have, but other sources were reporting a different side to the story. It's very sad indeed when civilians die, but in any war zone this is inevitable, hence no one should make excuses for it.
The TTP and all other scum thrive amongst these communities, hence it's very difficult to distinguish for the security forces. Considering how many civilians get killed next door in Afghanistan, our boys are doing a commendable job in avoiding the collateral damage.

Pakistani jets kill 45 people in Khyber: militants | Reuters

 

[deckingraj]

Sir, they very well may have, but other sources were reporting a different side to the story. It's very sad indeed when civilians die, but in any war zone this is inevitable, hence no one should make excuses for it.
The TTP and all other scum thrive amongst these communities, hence it's very difficult to distinguish for the security forces. Considering how many civilians get killed next door in Afghanistan, our boys are doing a commendable job in avoiding the collateral damage.

Pakistani jets kill 45 people in Khyber: militants | Reuters

Lets not talk about AF because NATO forces are not acting against their own people....So even if they are careless there is no way PA can take this casually...Mind it i used word careless just to pass on the point...I by no mean saying that NATO is killing civilians just for the heck of it...

If what you are saying is correct then yes indeed PA is doing a good job...

 

[DaRk WaVe]

None of the Missiles till this day have 'Taliban Recognition Sensors', Its an unfortunate incident & these kinda events must not happen that's what i can hope R.I.P for the dead

 

[karan.1970]

The one challenge Pakistan establishment will face after this is that it wont be able to protest effectively next time there is collatral damage from drone strikes..

 

[Justin Joseph]

One thing is for sure though, that the Taliban have butchered thousands more civilians in their barbaric quest for power than the Pakistani Military has in their attempt to stop the terrorists.

Don't confuse the tragedy of civilian lives lost in war with the necessity of waging war to eliminate terrorists and terrorism.

Yeah... "Ghehu ke saath ghun pista hai" but the taliban is not real threat the ideology is. If u kill 1 tomorrow 10 will raise to fight. so we have to isolate all types of extremist and their ideologies.

 

[Windjammer]

Lets not talk about AF because NATO forces are not acting against their own people....So even if they are careless there is no way PA can take this casually...Mind it i used word careless just to pass on the point...I by no mean saying that NATO is killing civilians just for the heck of it...

If what you are saying is correct then yes indeed PA is doing a good job...

A fact conveniently ignored by all concerned is that the PA alone has suffered more casualties in this so called WOT, than the combined ISAF set up in Afghanistan. The reason being that the PA is fighting with one hand tied. Just to avoid the civilian deaths, it had to conduct a slow and painful operation. As for your earlier argument, the PA only went in after the FC, a Militia force, found the enemy much better trained and equipped than your average insurgent.

 

[deckingraj]

The one challenge Pakistan establishment will face after this is that it wont be able to protest effectively next time there is collatral damage from drone strikes..

Umm why not???? Since when 2 wrongs make it right....Just because there strikes have caused collateral damage does that mean now NATO forces in AF have got a right to use drones irrespective of civilian casualities????

Secondly this is their country and their people....NATO has honestly no biz to use drones in their country leave aside pointing to this incident if confronted...

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

The one challenge Pakistan establishment will face after this is that it wont be able to protest effectively next time there is collatral damage from drone strikes..

The argument against drone strikes has always been one of sovereignty.

In fact the Pakistani leadership has very specifically argued that if there is collateral damage through a drone strike operated by Pakistan, it will be less inflammatory in Pakistan because we will take ownership for it.

In offering that rationale against drone attacks by the US, the GoP has accepted the argument that collateral damage would be likely whether the US or the GoP was operating the drones.

 

[karan.1970]

Umm why not???? Since when 2 wrongs make it right....Just because there strikes have caused collateral damage does that mean now NATO forces in AF have got a right to use drones irrespective of civilian casualities????

Secondly this is their country and their people....NATO has honestly no biz to use drones in their country leave aside pointing to this incident if confronted...

See.. NATO is also not deliberately bombing civilians. The incident today goes to show that in a war zone, mistakes can happen. The same may get thrown back at Pakistan if she protests next time there is collateral damage..

And its a well circulated semi - fact that Drone attacks have Pakistani govt's approval (though not publically) ..

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Agno i am sure you would agree that Army job is to protect borders....This is the best role they are suited for....Indian as well as Pakistani army basic training do not include urban warfare(I mean tackling with insurgency in urban areas)....When you involve your Army who is not trained in Urban Warfare there would always be collateral damage...This would be wrong to say that such incidents are rare(Yes incidents of this audacity might be rarest of rare) but i would be surprised to know that there are not significant civilian casualities when PA is conducting these operations...

Anyways i believe this(civilian casulities) makes the whole operation super complex....No one has a clear idea of what is the best solution...An all out Iron hand, Peace Deals with Taliban, Iron hand accompanied by peace deals etc etc....We all know that unless and Until populace support is not taken away Taliban can not be defeated...Let me share with you the situation that we are facing viz-a-viz Moist(they are not as deadly as Taliban however our situation is as complex as this one)...

- As said you need to kill the populace support to win over insurgency
- The only way can win pupulace support by bringing in development
- However no one is ready to invest in areas where there is no security...For instance : No one will start factories in such area, no one will build roads, no one will open Schools, hospitals etc etc....In short unless and until you do not bring in peace in such areas it is hard for you to bring in development...
- To achieve peace state moves in Armed Forces who unfortunately are not well trained to take on these insurgents in their own den...
- Armed forces get some setbacks and compensate for their lack of training by lowering their standards of operation and end up causing collateral damage...
- Result : the very support you wanted to kill you end up adding fuel to it....Also because of your sub-standard trainig(as per the requirement) and sub-standard procedure you are not able to bring in absolute peace to the place.... In other words neither you killed the popoulace support nor you could bring in absolute peace implying once you move out insurgency will come back to business... all you achieved is a temporary lull....


So IMO yours situations is somewhat similar to this apart from the fact that Taliban is far more effective and deadly terrorists...however both are very complex situation to tackle...yes i agree that PA has no choice but to fight...However are they helping by fighting or making things more troublesome only time will tell...





That pretty much sums it all...There is no way PA can back out from this operation..Unfortunate but true this is the need of the hour...It would have been great had this situation been prevented earlier but now it is too late to repent on mistakes of Past...However there is an urgent need to ensure Local Law enforcement is strengthened so that they can deliver the job once Army clears the area....This IMO is very important and is something in which India failed miserably(though things are changing) when it comes to Kashmir....

History tells us that prolonged Army presence in civilian Area is destined to be a disaster...Anyways i wish no such incidents take place and good luck with your fight on terror!!!!

The PA is very aware of the necessity of development - PA presentations never fail to emphasize the fact that military force can only go so far, and that there is a need for 'hold, reconstruction, rehabilitation and raising local law enforcement to take on security responsibilities'. You can see these principles being employed in Swat where infrastructure is being rebuilt, local police is being trained and attempts to kick start the economy are being made.

There was a reason the PA and GoP under Musharraf was so reluctant to take on the Taliban militarily, which is precisely what you mentioned of the unpopularity of deploying the military against its own citizens.

Unfortunately, the Taliban and other extremists organizations pushed the country to the brink of collapse with their terrorist attacks in all major cities and expansion into more and more areas. There simply was no other choice except to deploy the military, the threat was too large and too powerful for law enforcement and the paramilitaries to control.

And these types of incidents, while still regrettable, do remain rare, and the PA is acutely aware of the need to minimize as much as possible civilian casualties.

 

[deckingraj]

A fact conveniently ignored by all concerned is that the PA alone has suffered more casualties in this so called WOT, than the combined ISAF set up in Afghanistan.

I don't think that i am ignoring that fact..In fact i am saying that Indian and Pakistani forces are not well trained to take on insurgents because such operations do not come under their training structure....


This is what i wrote...

- Armed forces get some setbacks and compensate for their lack of training by lowering their standards of operation and end up causing collateral damage...

I am not surprised about high number of PA casualties. They are/were bound to happen...Unfortunate but true...You cannot expect miracles just by putting in your Army into a war which they are not prepared for...Considering budget contraints that PA faces as compared with NATO forces this is/was going to happen...and mind it this is not because NATO don't care about civilians and PA is extra careful but because of higher standards of safety process when it comes to soldiers of west viz-a-viz third world countries like us....

The reason being that the PA is fighting with one hand tied. Just to avoid the civilian deaths, it had to conduct a slow and painful operation. As for your earlier argument, the PA only went in after the FC, a Militia force, found the enemy much better trained and equipped than your average insurgent.

Did i deny that... This is what i wrote...

So IMO yours situations is somewhat similar to this apart from the fact that Taliban is far more effective and deadly terrorists

What i am debating is the complexity involved when it comes to dealing with insurgents...No one has got a clear answer to it...Sri Lanka did manage incredible success but there are lot of questions on their operation regarding civilian casualties