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Pakistan Alouette III Replacement Options

I really think we should look at designing and manufacturing helicopters in Pakistan. We have a huge demand and requirement for them and long term it will suit us to have something we've developed and manufacture ourselves, as it will be cheaper than buying externally.
 
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Spotted the 19th AS350 B3 Ecureuil in Pakistan Army (serial: 2819). More examples are on order. Expected to replace the Alouette III and Lama fleet.

PHOTO DATE
Jan 08, 2019

PHOTO LOCATION
Islamabad-Chaklala - OPRN
Pakistan

23368_1547786092.jpg
 
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Spotted the 19th AS350 B3 Ecureuil in Pakistan Army (serial: 2819). More examples are on order. Expected to replace the Alouette III and Lama fleet.

PHOTO DATE
Jan 08, 2019

PHOTO LOCATION
Islamabad-Chaklala - OPRN
Pakistan

23368_1547786092.jpg
Lama are mainly for the northern mountains and Siachen region with its 5500m service ceiling. Ecureuil have service ceiling of around 4600m
 
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Pakistan is mountainous country, and helicopters are critical for operations in such terrain. One major reason the Indians were able to capture siachen was that they had high altitude helicopters like the Alouette and lama which could supply their troops at such heights. Pakistan needs helicopters specialized for high altitude operations, because most helicopters are unable to fly at the extreme altitudes and atmospheric conditions of northern Pakistan. The best options for Pakistan are:

In the light transport and scout category:
  • Eurocopter AS-550 Fennec & AS-555 Fennec 2
  • Earlier called AS-350 Ecureuil & AS-355 Ecureuil 2, these helicopters, just like the Alouettes/Lamas, are specialized for very high altitude operations. The Fennec is the only helicopter that has landed on the top of Mt Everest at 8,848 m (29,030 ft) (May 14, 2005, Eurocopter AS350). It is used for rescuing climbers from Everest when things go wrong, as it was the only helicopter that could operate at such heights. Can carry 4-6 passengers.
  • Kamov Ka-226T.
  • This russian helicopter can carry upto 7 passengers or upto 1050 kg cargo. It uses a coaxial rotor system, which gives it exceptional climb rate and very precise hovering capability. It has a unique modular and detachable cabin system and can operate in extreme temperature conditions. It was the helicopter that won the indian tender for 197 light helicopters, beating the Fennec because of its superior climb rates and high altitude flying characteristics. Its coaxial rotor system makes it extremely good at high altitude flight, with a service ceiling of 20,000 ft+ (23,000 ft if u go by wikipedia)
In the medium or heavy transport category:
  • Mi 38
  • This 16 ton helicopter can carry 6 tonnes of cargo internally or upto 30 passengers. It holds many altitude records, and in 2012 it set the altitude record for for helicopters in the 10,000kg to 20,000kg, reaching an altitude of 28,200ft (8,600m).
  • Z-18
  • This 13 ton Chinese helicopter is built for high altitude operations and can carry 27 passengers. In 2015 it was reported that this helicopter had broken the world altitude record while flying in Tibet when it had reached 9,000m altitude and was flying above the height of Mt. Everest.
 
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Pakistan is mountainous country, and helicopters are critical for operations in such terrain. One major reason the Indians were able to capture siachen was that they had high altitude helicopters like the Alouette and lama which could supply their troops at such heights. Pakistan needs helicopters specialized for high altitude operations, because most helicopters are unable to fly at the extreme altitudes and atmospheric conditions of northern Pakistan. The best options for Pakistan are:

In the light transport and scout category:
  • Eurocopter AS-550 Fennec & AS-555 Fennec 2
  • Earlier called AS-350 Ecureuil & AS-355 Ecureuil 2, these helicopters, just like the Alouettes/Lamas, are specialized for very high altitude operations. The Fennec is the only helicopter that has landed on the top of Mt Everest at 8,848 m (29,030 ft) (May 14, 2005, Eurocopter AS350). It is used for rescuing climbers from Everest when things go wrong, as it was the only helicopter that could operate at such heights. Can carry 4-6 passengers.
  • Kamov Ka-226T.
  • This russian helicopter can carry upto 7 passengers or upto 1050 kg cargo. It uses a coaxial rotor system, which gives it exceptional climb rate and very precise hovering capability. It has a unique modular and detachable cabin system and can operate in extreme temperature conditions. It was the helicopter that won the indian tender for 197 light helicopters, beating the Fennec because of its superior climb rates and high altitude flying characteristics. Its coaxial rotor system makes it extremely good at high altitude flight, with a service ceiling of 20,000 ft+ (23,000 ft if u go by wikipedia)
In the medium or heavy transport category:
  • Mi 38
  • This 16 ton helicopter can carry 6 tonnes of cargo internally or upto 30 passengers. It holds many altitude records, and in 2012 it set the altitude record for for helicopters in the 10,000kg to 20,000kg, reaching an altitude of 28,200ft (8,600m).
  • Z-18
  • This 13 ton Chinese helicopter is built for high altitude operations and can carry 27 passengers. In 2015 it was reported that this helicopter had broken the world altitude record while flying in Tibet when it had reached 9,000m altitude and was flying above the height of Mt. Everest.

Selection of AS350 B3 Ecureuil & AS550 C3 Fennec by Pakistan Army for utility & light attack / armed recon roles respectively also means that its fleet of Alouette III, Lama & JetRangers will be replaced by two highly capable helicopters based on the same platform (with the same engine).

The Army can establish an MRO facility for its fleet which will also benefit FC, another operator of the Ecureuil.

19 Ecureuil's have so far been inducted by PAA with 11 more nearing delivery. It is understood the PAA plans roughly 40 examples.
 
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How many Fennec's does the PA have in service? Can you also shed light on how many Ecureil's are in the FC inventory?
 
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Selection of AS350 B3 Ecureuil & AS550 C3 Fennec by Pakistan Army for utility & light attack / armed recon roles respectively also means that its fleet of Alouette III, Lama & JetRangers will be replaced by two highly capable helicopters based on the same platform (with the same engine).

The Army can establish an MRO facility for its fleet which will also benefit FC, another operator of the Ecureuil.

19 Ecureuil's have so far been inducted by PAA with 11 more nearing delivery. It is understood the PAA plans roughly 40 examples.

@Gryphon @Quwa

It is a fantastic choice. Pakistan is really deficient in helicopters when one considers the terrain the country has. Having said that, i consider the lack of any attempt at developing the domestic helicopter industry as a big mistake.

Look at India which bought an European design (Dhruv) and manufacturing technology and created an entire helicopter industry from it. They have now built hundreds of these helicopters and it has proven to be a very successful program and has given their army a quantum leap in operations and logistics at high altitudes in the north. They even created a gunship version of this chopper, basically getting a fire-and-forget ATGM firing attack helicopter literally for free. And now they are building a high-altitude gunship (LCH) based on this helicopter which will be able bring close air support to their troops at altitudes in the north where it becomes a game changer for their troops. Not every mountain post can be provided a MANPAD, and area air defence platforms aren't much use there, and a helicopter is the perfect platform for taking out well dug out posts in the mountains that are unapproachable from the ground.

Such transport helicopters, light or heavy, are cheap (costs around the same as a modern tank) and the benefits of a helicopter industry are massive as a chopper will sell in both the military and civilian market. You can take the same helicopter and sell it to civilian markets worldwide, unlike a fighter like the JF-17, which is guaranteed no sales in any western country, even if it was cheaper than anything else in the market. Helis therefore have massive economies of scale as compared to military jets.

Pakistan should acquire license production rights to a helicopter like the AS-550 Fennec or Kamov Ka-226T, or become a partner to Turkish programs to kick start its rotary wing industry. Just the domestic market for such helicopters (military branches and civilian sales potential) will be in the hundreds. The export market is huge as well. A helicopter design can stay competitive for 30-40 years or more with a simple engine update, it is not like a fighter that needs regular technology updates to stay relevant in the wake of its adversaries evolving capabilities.
 
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@Gryphon @Quwa

It is a fantastic choice. Pakistan is really deficient in helicopters when one considers the terrain the country has. Having said that, i consider the lack of any attempt at developing the domestic helicopter industry as a big mistake.

Look at India which bought an European design (Dhruv) and manufacturing technology and created an entire helicopter industry from it. They have now built hundreds of these helicopters and it has proven to be a very successful program and has given their army a quantum leap in operations and logistics at high altitudes in the north. They even created a gunship version of this chopper, basically getting a fire-and-forget ATGM firing attack helicopter literally for free. And now they are building a high-altitude gunship (LCH) based on this helicopter which will be able bring close air support to their troops at altitudes in the north where it becomes a game changer for their troops. Not every mountain post can be provided a MANPAD, and area air defence platforms aren't much use there, and a helicopter is the perfect platform for taking out well dug out posts in the mountains that are unapproachable from the ground.

Such transport helicopters, light or heavy, are cheap (costs around the same as a modern tank) and the benefits of a helicopter industry are massive as a chopper will sell in both the military and civilian market. You can take the same helicopter and sell it to civilian markets worldwide, unlike a fighter like the JF-17, which is guaranteed no sales in any western country, even if it was cheaper than anything else in the market. Helis therefore have massive economies of scale as compared to military jets.

Pakistan should acquire license production rights to a helicopter like the AS-550 Fennec or Kamov Ka-226T, or become a partner to Turkish programs to kick start its rotary wing industry. Just the domestic market for such helicopters (military branches and civilian sales potential) will be in the hundreds. The export market is huge as well. A helicopter design can stay competitive for 30-40 years or more with a simple engine update, it is not like a fighter that needs regular technology updates to stay relevant in the wake of its adversaries evolving capabilities.
You're absolutely right. The Rooivalk, for example, is a derivation of the Puma/Oryx, and the upcoming AW249 between Italy and Poland is a development of the AW149. The key, as the Turks are showing, is to get into the production of dynamic parts (rotors, transmission, etc) and the engine. Lets you take on more of the helicopter production work and control its long term maintenance and support.
 
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You're absolutely right. The Rooivalk, for example, is a derivation of the Puma/Oryx, and the upcoming AW249 between Italy and Poland is a development of the AW149. The key, as the Turks are showing, is to get into the production of dynamic parts (rotors, transmission, etc) and the engine. Lets you take on more of the helicopter production work and control its long term maintenance and support.

Pakistan already has two dependable sources for Turboshafts: China and Turkey (whose TS1400 and TS2000 engines are under development) and then there are a multiple European suppliers who will be all too happy to sell an engine or other components for a transport helicopter. Not only can subsystems be sourced, but even design consultancy work can be outsourced to them. They are, after all, even jointly developing helicopters (and turboshafts) with the Chinese: why would they not do business with Pakistan. What i'm trying to say is, it is easier to develop a rotary industry in the country than it appears to be. The options for cooperation and component sourcing are a lot more in this industry.

The technology they are likely to hold back includes sensors and munitions, or parts for attack helicopters which aren't critical to building a helicopter industry in the first instance, and even when needed, are available from Turkey and China.
 
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While standardizing a helicopter platform across all 3 branches of the military sounds like a good idea, it probably won't work. No service branch is going to compromise their capabilities so that same platform can serve in another branch.

The air force wants AW139's, the army want's heavier choppers like the mi-171(ideally heavier like a chinook) and the navy want's something like the seahawk.

Because we are stuck in this predicament, the need for a single helicopter type is not high enough to warrant local production.
 
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@Gryphon @Quwa

It is a fantastic choice. Pakistan is really deficient in helicopters when one considers the terrain the country has. Having said that, i consider the lack of any attempt at developing the domestic helicopter industry as a big mistake.

Look at India which bought an European design (Dhruv) and manufacturing technology and created an entire helicopter industry from it. They have now built hundreds of these helicopters and it has proven to be a very successful program and has given their army a quantum leap in operations and logistics at high altitudes in the north. They even created a gunship version of this chopper, basically getting a fire-and-forget ATGM firing attack helicopter literally for free. And now they are building a high-altitude gunship (LCH) based on this helicopter which will be able bring close air support to their troops at altitudes in the north where it becomes a game changer for their troops. Not every mountain post can be provided a MANPAD, and area air defence platforms aren't much use there, and a helicopter is the perfect platform for taking out well dug out posts in the mountains that are unapproachable from the ground.

Such transport helicopters, light or heavy, are cheap (costs around the same as a modern tank) and the benefits of a helicopter industry are massive as a chopper will sell in both the military and civilian market. You can take the same helicopter and sell it to civilian markets worldwide, unlike a fighter like the JF-17, which is guaranteed no sales in any western country, even if it was cheaper than anything else in the market. Helis therefore have massive economies of scale as compared to military jets.

Pakistan should acquire license production rights to a helicopter like the AS-550 Fennec or Kamov Ka-226T, or become a partner to Turkish programs to kick start its rotary wing industry. Just the domestic market for such helicopters (military branches and civilian sales potential) will be in the hundreds. The export market is huge as well. A helicopter design can stay competitive for 30-40 years or more with a simple engine update, it is not like a fighter that needs regular technology updates to stay relevant in the wake of its adversaries evolving capabilities.
There are a few factors why the helicopter industry was not built in Pakistan:

1. Unfortunately in Pakistan, the MBT and APC have been given importance over helicopters (all types: transport and gunships, light and medium). Army felt it necessary to raise more armored and mechanized formations for offensive operations and to hold ground. The R&S (Now LAT) battalions also had a similar concept; hold ground through firepower. HIT was formed to rebuild tanks, APC's etc. In 1990's the design for Al-Khalid MBT started where as Army had realized that M-113 will be its choice for APC so a license was obtained for production. Its not just the heli, a push for manufacturing a howitzer has not seen the light of the day.

2. Army relied on ground transport vehicles for ferrying troops and cargo. It was observed that Supply and Transport (S&T) Battalions could transport ordnance, weapons and troops in large quantity over roads in mountains, deserts, plains etc. For this reason NLC and FWO made roads everywhere inside Pakistan. Every Division has a transport battalion composed of heavy haulers, trucks(different sizes), buses and pickups.

3. It was ironic that a combat force of 400,000 to 500,000 troops just had 20 gunships for carrying out attack role back in 80's and 90's. Even at that time the competition was Gunship Vs Armored Division (third armored division for PA). The Gunship lobby won and the AH-1 was inducted. It was given the role of an Ant-Tank platform from the onset to counter Indian armor threat. The TOW system was already used by infantry and on APC, so induction of weapon system was easy.
Now that Mi-24 has been inducted, T-129 on the way, possibly AH-1Z while AH-1F still serving the forces, shows that Military leadership has understood the importance of gunship in major spheres of combat; COIN as well as conventional.

4. Since the Army relied mostly on vehicle transport, it was the mountain terrain (Kashmir/Siachen) where the need for transport helicopters was felt the most. The lighter ones were considered like AS 315 Lama and Alouette III series, able to carry 4 or 5 troops. For medium lift, SA 300 Puma was considered and it was the primary helicopter for SSG for air assault and infantry for heli drop roles. Mi-17's were used for cargo transport. Mainly, the helicopters were used for med evac, supply, sometimes troop insertion etc.
The mules were observed as a cheaper option for transport in harsh mountain terrain and for far flung posts. The Mona depot provided much needed inventory of mules and the RVFC maintained them. Sometimes mules would take 2-3 days in reaching a post for replenishing supplies but that was considered adequate by the High Command.

5. There were no air borne or air assault formations apart from SSG or SSG (N) that would require helicopters in large numbers. Sea Kings of PN were multirole and SSG (N) used them. The LCB's were raised after 2007. Although there still isn't a Brigade sized air assault/ air borne formation (outside SF) but the number of LCB's have grown.The FC/Rangers was modernized in the same era with own Special Wings. The WOT on western border had instigated the need for QRF(Quick Reaction Force), both ground and air, thus the requirement for helicopters increased. It was after 2001 that all arms of Pakistan military (especially Army) started inducting transport helicopters in large numbers due to the COIN war and SF Ops. Now there are different types of transport helis in inventory. Bell 412, Bell 206, AS 550 and AS 350, SA 330, SA 315, 316 and 319, S 300C, E 280 FX, AW 139 and of course Mi-17. Some are light while other are medium and this inventory can sustain air assault operations. Pakistan can go for license production of AS-350/550 and AW-139.
 
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While standardizing a helicopter platform across all 3 branches of the military sounds like a good idea, it probably won't work. No service branch is going to compromise their capabilities so that same platform can serve in another branch.

The air force wants AW139's, the army want's heavier choppers like the mi-171(ideally heavier like a chinook) and the navy want's something like the seahawk.

Because we are stuck in this predicament, the need for a single helicopter type is not high enough to warrant local production.

PA and PAF are already standardizing on the AW-139 as their SAR/medium transport. There is no particular capability in a transport/scout helicopter that is specific to either service. In fact, all three services can use the same chopper.

The only specialized helicopters that are specific to the requirements of a single service are Gunships and Anti Submarine Helicopters. But we aren't talking about Gunships here, and Pakistan has already signed up for AH-1Z and T-129s.

Coming to the navy's future requirement of a specialized ASW helicopter, the Chinese Z-18 has a big advantage here as China is already developing an ASW variant. It can be the perfect platform for Pakistan to standardise on as their heavy lift platform because all three branches can use it. It is capable of a 5000kg payload, has flown as high as 9000m (~29,500 ft) which makes it particularly suitable for Pakistan's Northern Areas, has enough carrying capacity to transport the AHS-1 155mm lightweight gun and has an anti-submarine version too. It is sanction proof and an improved wide-body version is under flight testing as well.

The only other alternatives for the ASW role are EH-101 Merlin (5000kg class payload for transport version, not built for high altitude ops), NH-90 (4000kg class payload) or MH-60R Seahawk (3000kg class payload).
 
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@Path-Finder @niaz @Ahmet Pasha @khanasifm @Shabi1

Pakistan Army acquired 10x H125/AS350 B3 Ecureuil in the last decade. These are being used in Northern Areas for utility requirements.
AS350 B3 has also been used in successful SAR missions on the Nanga Parbat. The helicopter is meant to perform in 'hot and high' conditions.

According to MoDP Yearbooks 2014-15 and 2015-16, PA has ordered 13 more Ecureuil's.

Those are your Alouette III replacements.

The scout role will be performed by 18 H125M/AS550 C3 Fennec's.
So how many AS350 and AS550 have been delivered so far?
There have been losses too, AFAIR one AS350 was shot down during Anti Terror operation and one AS550 was lost due to air crash.
 
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@Gryphon @Quwa

It is a fantastic choice. Pakistan is really deficient in helicopters when one considers the terrain the country has. Having said that, i consider the lack of any attempt at developing the domestic helicopter industry as a big mistake.

Look at India which bought an European design (Dhruv) and manufacturing technology and created an entire helicopter industry from it. They have now built hundreds of these helicopters and it has proven to be a very successful program and has given their army a quantum leap in operations and logistics at high altitudes in the north. They even created a gunship version of this chopper, basically getting a fire-and-forget ATGM firing attack helicopter literally for free. And now they are building a high-altitude gunship (LCH) based on this helicopter which will be able bring close air support to their troops at altitudes in the north where it becomes a game changer for their troops. Not every mountain post can be provided a MANPAD, and area air defence platforms aren't much use there, and a helicopter is the perfect platform for taking out well dug out posts in the mountains that are unapproachable from the ground.

Such transport helicopters, light or heavy, are cheap (costs around the same as a modern tank) and the benefits of a helicopter industry are massive as a chopper will sell in both the military and civilian market. You can take the same helicopter and sell it to civilian markets worldwide, unlike a fighter like the JF-17, which is guaranteed no sales in any western country, even if it was cheaper than anything else in the market. Helis therefore have massive economies of scale as compared to military jets.

Pakistan should acquire license production rights to a helicopter like the AS-550 Fennec or Kamov Ka-226T, or become a partner to Turkish programs to kick start its rotary wing industry. Just the domestic market for such helicopters (military branches and civilian sales potential) will be in the hundreds. The export market is huge as well. A helicopter design can stay competitive for 30-40 years or more with a simple engine update, it is not like a fighter that needs regular technology updates to stay relevant in the wake of its adversaries evolving capabilities.

Would it not be cheaper to buy from abroad? We can buy it off the shelf solution and it will be a quick delivery? Our demand for numbers is too small to set up or justify to set up a production line? Our economy is too weak priorities should be XYZ?
We all have heard it for far too long as it effects commission for certain influential people and there are few countries with influence really doesn't wants us to have these kind of industries. On one hand we have not much to offer for exports other then farm produce and suffering with the balance of payments problem and on the second hand we can't be bothered to take the opportunities when they arise to improve our economy. When have we raised the slogan for made in Pakistan and followed it through.
This is our mind set, opportunity is all there to see of helicopter production line and the best thing is can be sold to private and military sector as mentioned above by the author. IF we lack design or technical capabilities or infrastructure then why don't we demand of some parts offset to be made in Pakistan when we buy products from other countries. US and France to name the few build their economies by selling arms. I remember famous French slogan of 70's as long as you got the dollars we will sell you the arms and their was no mention of human rights or any other issue to stop the delivery. We lack visionary leaders, lack will, lack desire, missing the slogan of made in Pakistan. We are so keen to polish up the begging bowl and ask for loans from GCC or run to IMF but are not showing any enthusiasm to get out of the financial mess and restore our dignity and ability to pay our own bills. We can all blame PPP, Nora or who ever we care to think of but its all in the past and we have to do something for our nation future too and baby steps needs to be taken for industrialization and aviation is one such industry too which does includes helicopters.
 
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