Pakistan: Alliance Over if US Troops Expand War Across Border

[Leviza]

In that case, you could firmly commit towards a joint anti-terror operation with American forces. There is absolutely no reason that NATO or ISAF would give up on a zero sum game.

The problem is that your country is facing a militancy that has some connections linking to global problems of terrorism as well. It is rather unfortuante that these radicals are taking up refuge in your border areas. All these numbers and ranks count for little if militancy has gripped your country.

Please think of it in a proactive manner on how to first rid of the problem that is keeping the Americans in your part of the world. That specific problem is the cause of all other problems your country is facing. Aggression towards Americans at this stage or at any stage will get no positive results for both of you. While you both fight, fundamentalists and militants would thrive and refill their supplies.

Problem is Americans in Afghanistan as there was no single militancy in Pakistan b4 Americans jumps in.... which is still not proved that 9/11 was by taliban or osama????

for just 3k people died in 9/11 we have already killed more then 6 millions innocents in Afghanistan and Iraq in the name of this WOT ....

Solution is end this war and everything will be okey......
When American do drone attacks in FATA and kills innocents then people take weapons agains NATO... drones killing ratio of actual al-qaida people and innocents is 1/45 so there is no justifications for it....

 

[TechLahore]

I personally do not like meddling with someone else's territory and understand you anger, but Taliban and Al Qaeda seem to have become a global problem which is further complicated due to your limited border precautions and porous regions along Afghanistan Pakistan border.

Hence it leaves NATO little choice but to ask your permission to strike with special forces into your territory.

There are a number of problems with the above. First, is the insurgency problem in Afghanistan localized to the border areas with Pakistan? No. Second, has NATO been able to control the Afghan insurgency in all areas other than the ones that border Pakistan? No, in fact the insurgency has spread far and wide in Afghanistan. Third, is the character of the insurgency in Afghanistan a "hit and run" campaign, where the only attacks occurring are originating from FATA as quick pin pricks by attackers who drive back to NWA before NATO can respond? No.

In other words, do we have ANY reason to believe that while NATO has been entirely unsuccessful in quelling the insurgency in Afghanistan, specifically even in those areas which are far removed from the FATA border, that they would suddenly succeed in FATA? I think in all fairness, the answer is ABSOLUTELY NOT.

So before we start chest thumping with one party saying they will invade FATA and the other saying invaders will be made an example of, let's pause and think about the above. NATO has demonstrated that it is incapable of fighting the insurgency in Afghanistan thus far. On the other hand, the only professional military involved in the wider area which has made considerable progress has been the Pakistan Army. And this progress has been achieved through different tactics and strategy as compared to what NATO has been pursuing.

So, why should we rely on an incompetent, failed force to solve our problem when we have a successful force like the PA already on the ground?

The issue boils down to one of timing and impatience. NATO has to make a withdrawal in a short period of time and now there is a lot of political pressure on leaving under circumstances that are not interpreted as a loss. This political pressure will cause bad decisions to be made at a military level unless the military leadership demonstrates tremendous backbone. Luckily, thus far they have not disappointed. The NYT story was publicly and immediately denied very directly by high-ranking NATO leadership.

We are now in the endgame in Afghanistan and various factions within NATO (political and military) will be carrying out an at-times public campaign using the press as an instrument to gain favour for their preferred strategy. As this fractious process unfolds, there are bound to be days on which NATO will seem belligerent towards Pakistan (as viewed via the pages of leading US/European newspapers) and others on which they will seem friendly and helpful. For Pakistanis, this may seem a bit of a roller coaster, but all of it is ultimately immaterial. This "dialog via the front page" process is their attempt to arrive at a non-embarrassing exit from Afghanistan and is an internal NATO problem, not our problem. The only thing we need to do is draw the line we have already drawn. Whether or not NATO decides to cross this line is their decision. Whatever happens afterwards is ours.

 

[Parashuram1]

Just wanted to say that maybe you dont know whats going on around this area or have very less information.

can you justify these points?
1- When Pakistani army offered to put wire on afghan border so no one can pass border without permissions NATO and USA was the first one to raise voice against it.

And could you please explain to me why do you need American consent to fence your own borders? All the time, I see Pakistani members here talking of their autonomy and independent stand all the time and complaining about American involvement.

Afghanistan is a sovereign country and you never required American consent to fence your own borders. Perhaps this has something to do with your own ethnic divide that is there between your territory and Afghanistan's Pashtun tribes.

2- When Pakistan Army enggaged war in south Waziristan NATO and USA removed thier check posts along the border and lots of Al-Qaida and Taliban escaped to Afghanistan - why do they remove the checkposts? in order to support militants???

And did the Pakistani government raise this issue aggressively at diplomatic levels with United States? Or is this an eyewash news just to create anti-American sentiments by the anti-American lobbies? I am genuinely asking you since you know that in every country, there is a pro and an anti lobby for every major power.

If this issue has been raised fiercely by your leaders, I am sure Americans would be cornered at international level to be absent for answers. Americans are capable of playing some very shrewd politics but it is not impossible to corner them.

3- Indians actions in Balochistan and FATA proved by Pak Army with indian origin weapons captured from these militants......

I do not know about engagements between you and the Indians. My words solely concern issues between you and Afghanistan. Your issues with the Indians is bilateral and has nothing to do with my words.

there is a long list and thats the reason Pakistan army is against and saying if you cross your limits then Alliance is over.....

Dont see and listen what media is telling you only try to read in between the lines and you will get more from what they jsut want to tell you....

Sir, I am aware of the issues and frustration that most of Pakistanis are currently undergoing due to pressure on their region. But the problem could have been solved without any of this had it been struck at nascent stages itself. Your military would be more aware of this situation than me or anyone here.

Today this problem not just plagues your country but is seeing its ugly head rising in our Europe, in North America, Central Asia, Balkans, Russia and other parts of the world. Hence the recent increase in pressure. At this stage, rigidity with sovereignty is not a result yielder as it will only put you into the image of those helping militancy, even though you are not.

And United States is not the only country that would do so. The best and most viable option Pakistani military has is to set up a charter and framework on how your forces would cooperate with NATO troops and conduct counter-terror assaults in a limited theatre.

 

[dabong1]

History repeating itself.
In vietnam when the US was getting beaten it shifted the blame of failure across the border into cambodia and we all know what happened in cambodia .

 

[dabong1]

The pakistani govt is going to back the american proposal and let US forces into pakistan.......drip by drip and we will accepted that its ok for the pakistani army to be deployed in the tribal areas......letting US drones take off from pakistani airfields......logistically helping the occupation of afganistan......handing pakistani citizens to foreign govt.
So whats the big deal with US soldiers being on the ground,dont worry when they have been caught out it will displayed as "joint Pak-US"anti terror raids.

 

[Leviza]

And could you please explain to me why do you need American consent to fence your own borders? All the time, I see Pakistani members here talking of their autonomy and independent stand all the time and complaining about American involvement.

Please go and read about the history of Afghanistan and Pakistan
also read about the FATA and how we have a border b/w these 2 countries....just to give you one hint read about Durand Line......

alos i am not going to asnwer your other parts as they are just baised on media reports.......

 

[Parashuram1]

So, why should we rely on an incompetent, failed force to solve our problem when we have a successful force like the PA already on the ground?

Mr. Techlahore, The answer to your most crucial question in this post is: more hands, more logistics, and more weapons. That is all the incentive that is there for you to permit NATO forces, even if you consider their wider operations as a failure.

Again you fail to understand the point of my post. This is not your problem alone any longer. It is the entire world's problem and that includes a lot of countries from Europe as well. The question of your sovereignty being breached would have held water when NATO would intentionally breach them to antagonize the Pakistani state. However, that is not the intention here but instead of conduct hot pursuit missions against militants.

The way I see it and being a part of military myself, the problem is not so complicated as it is projected to be if only both sides American and Pakistani, are willing to cooperate and genuinely end this problem. What creates a road-block is the general anti-Western sentiments that are raised by some of your more conservative parties that are easily bought by some sections of your society and hence create political pressure on your leadership to refuse cooperation with NATO.

I am likely to assume here that the more conservative and to some extent radical parties are sympathetic towards these Taliban and other such elements. Correct me if I am wrong, but such political forces are a large-scale cause of a deadlock between your government and international forces. The cross-border raids so far organized by American agencies is out of desperation since your own government is pressured to show some sort of patronizing defiance to American forces without understanding the core issue of this problem.

It is neither about your sovereignty nor about accepting succumbing to American bossing; it is eradicating radical militancy that has caused a lot of damage to a lot of countries including yours.

In the past United States has refused to transfer you some of its high technology military weapons because simply put, it wants to retain control of that technology such as repeated requests for armed drones. But does a reactive refusal from your government to allow American forces to enter your territory (Even in cooperation) on the basis of hot pursuit solve the militancy? No it does not.

So I would say that both of you people have to come above petty personal issues and see the big picture.

 

[Ahmad]

1- When Pakistani army offered to put wire on afghan border so no one can pass border without permissions NATO and USA was the first one to raise voice against it.

If i am not wrong President Musharaf proposed this first, but it was strongly rejected by Karzai, not NATO or USA. Karzai said that this barrier will separate the tribes from each other, and a pashtoon himself, he never wanted this to happen.

 

[dabong1]

There's a limit of what Pakistani Military and Pakistani public can tolerate because of the slave policies of the incompetent government.

Which the public voted in and share the title of incompetent along with the there govt.

Americans will be fools if they dare to invade. The response will be ruthless.

Theres be no "ruthless response" to drone attacks.......or is it okay to kill people with drones in pakistan but not oka to use soliders?

 

[Parashuram1]

Please go and read about the history of Afghanistan and Pakistan
also read about the FATA and how we have a border b/w these 2 countries....just to give you one hint read about Durand Line......

alos i am not going to asnwer your other parts as they are just baised on media reports.......

There is absolutely no need for me to understand your history as we are talking about present. Present borders are a decision by both of you. And since Afghanistan did not have a decisive government before American invasion, it was solely your decision to fence the territory, due to the lack of a negotiating party.

I have spoken in the most neutral possible manner to this problem as one can be. You will need to come out of your own perception of being wrongly marginalized first in order to understand the intention behind my questions.

I shall ask you again: Has Pakistani leadership done its best to assert its decision to fence your borders with Afghanistan? Any link, source or reference you could point me to if done so?

You do not have an answer for this.

Discussing and going into history is a waste of time to solve issues that stand tall today.

 

[Leviza]

If i am not wrong President Musharaf proposed this first, but it was strongly rejected by Karzai, not NATO or USA. Karzai said that this barrier will separate the tribes from each other, and a pashtoon himself, he never wanted this to happen.

and can you please care to tell me from where and how Karzai came into Afghanistan? he is just a NATO and Americans front man....

and even if Karzai didnt wanted this to happen then NATO, USA, Karzai cannot blaim Pakistan for anything....... its jsut i dont want you to do anything about this and i wont shutup in press to blaim you...

 

[Ahmad]

and can you please care to tell me from where and how Karzai came into Afghanistan? he is just a NATO and Americans front man....

and even if Karzai didnt wanted this to happen then NATO, USA, Karzai cannot blaim Pakistan for anything....... its jsut i dont want you to do anything about this and i wont shutup in press to blaim you...

so why on earth dont you fence the border? go and do it, good for us.

 

[Leviza]

There is absolutely no need for me to understand your history as we are talking about present. Present borders are a decision by both of you. And since Afghanistan did not have a decisive government before American invasion, it was solely your decision to fence the territory, due to the lack of a negotiating party.

I have spoken in the most neutral possible manner to this problem as one can be. You will need to come out of your own perception of being wrongly marginalized first in order to understand the intention behind my questions.

I shall ask you again: Has Pakistani leadership done its best to assert its decision to fence your borders with Afghanistan? Any link, source or reference you could point me to if done so?

You do not have an answer for this.

Discussing and going into history is a waste of time to solve issues that stand tall today.

By knowing history one can solve lot of issues....

i know you being neutral and i respect that but what i am asking you to dont jsut trust media... they are also controlled weapons if you know what i mean

Pakistani gov have dont alot, Swat is one example only, operations in FATA where they find solid proves, etc etc

BUT international community failed to understand that there is also a growing problems from Afghanistan side into Pakistan and NATO, USA are not doing anything to stop it, drones are one of these problems they are not helping it but putting oil in fire....

now if USA and NATO say they are going to be on ground then Pakistan is jsutify to become neutral on this WOT and leave this Alliance once for all as this is now creating issues in Pakistan and NATO, USA, International community are not doing enough and just putting up blaim game without any proves...

 

[Leviza]

so why on earth dont you fence the border? go and do it, good for us.

I have alot of Afghan friends and i respect them..... its not about fencing the border , its also about afghan people in Pakistan....
Afghan nation is great and mind it Pakistan and Afghan putup USSR on its own place....so basically general public of both Pakistan and Afghanistan united what we both are lacking in Leadership...

 

[Ahmad]

I have alot of Afghan friends and i respect them..... its not about fencing the border , its also about afghan people in Pakistan....

come on buddy, say something for real. I have a few best pakistani friends, but when it comes to my country, then country will be before my friendship. so dont give this low value excuse.