Pakistan Air Force in 2016 and Beyond

[ziaulislam]

in summary options we have
1. fifth gen fc 31 still 5 years away in best case scenrio/j20(if available)
2. J-10/ J-11 if available
3. F-16s..alot of drama and politics and i doubt we will get the V, as india will push hard
4. may be typhoons if we negotiate good
cost of typhoons trench 3 is drooping(per recent reports BAE Systems has slashed the cost of producing a Typhoon jet by 20p, thanks to more orders and more saudis orders) and tranch 1 has now decent updates for A2G role
nobody in europe is buying the emerging stock of used typhoons as f-16 is selling hot

5. indigenous project is definitively more than 15 years away(considering thunder achieved decent production in 15 years( 1996 to 2011) and was still considered fast.
i doubt we can wait that long

6. used mirage 2000, not a good deal in my opinion, their time is long gone unless dirt cheap
french are not gona do that as more rafale are pending
i doubt we will get a good deal like we did wit the mriage 3/5

 

[Signalian]

@Quwa

Please give updates/role/capabilities of PAF's SSW also.

 

[Falcon26]

in summary options we have
1. fifth gen fc 31 still 5 years away in best case scenrio/j20(if available)
2. J-10/ J-11 if available
3. F-16s..alot of drama and politics and i doubt we will get the V, as india will push hard
4. may be typhoons if we negotiate good
cost of typhoons trench 3 is drooping(per recent reports BAE Systems has slashed the cost of producing a Typhoon jet by 20p, thanks to more orders and more saudis orders) and tranch 1 has now decent updates for A2G role
nobody in europe is buying the emerging stock of used typhoons as f-16 is selling hot

5. indigenous project is definitively more than 15 years away(considering thunder achieved decent production in 15 years( 1996 to 2011) and was still considered fast.
i doubt we can wait that long

6. used mirage 2000, not a good deal in my opinion, their time is long gone unless dirt cheap
french are not gona do that as more rafale are pending
i doubt we will get a good deal like we did wit the mriage 3/5

Pakistan went for the block 52s and AMRAAMs despite the loudest cries of New Delhi against the deal. If it’s in the best interest of the the US, it will be done. India has no role here. You Pakistanis need to get real and quit looking at India as some sort of a hidden hand on US foreign policy. It’s not and can never be.

 

[ziaulislam]

Pakistan went for the block 52s and AMRAAMs despite the loudest cries of New Delhi against the deal. If it’s in the best interest of the the US, it will be done. India has no role here. You Pakistanis need to get real and quit looking at India as some sort of a hidden hand on US foreign policy. It’s not and can never be.

are you really kidding me..? capital hill has always been hotpot of different lobbying against and for pakistan

its the money that has role...money matters every where, health, defense, insurance...

what are the chances IAF will opt for block 70 if its given to Pakistan, this automatically blocks the f-16 for next 5 years
only an idiot CEO will let Pakistan buy 9-10 block 70 vs 120 Indian deal, look at France and you will understand what i mean, they blocked avionics deal to get Indian deal, the same is true for ZULUs that were initially blocked but once india choose the apaches, they were released

also you need to see the time line F-16s were acquired, Mushi tried multiple times and every time f-16 were first block than something happened in 2006 and they were opened and now again blocked...you have to give credit here to mushi and to fact that USA needed something..

remember what happend to 8 block 52s..??

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

in summary options we have
1. fifth gen fc 31 still 5 years away in best case scenrio/j20(if available)
2. J-10/ J-11 if available
3. F-16s..alot of drama and politics and i doubt we will get the V, as india will push hard
4. may be typhoons if we negotiate good
cost of typhoons trench 3 is drooping(per recent reports BAE Systems has slashed the cost of producing a Typhoon jet by 20p, thanks to more orders and more saudis orders) and tranch 1 has now decent updates for A2G role
nobody in europe is buying the emerging stock of used typhoons as f-16 is selling hot

5. indigenous project is definitively more than 15 years away(considering thunder achieved decent production in 15 years( 1996 to 2011) and was still considered fast.
i doubt we can wait that long

6. used mirage 2000, not a good deal in my opinion, their time is long gone unless dirt cheap
french are not gona do that as more rafale are pending
i doubt we will get a good deal like we did wit the mriage 3/5

Have no clue about aviation, but going with Pak's history, #1 looks like inevitable....

 

[ziaulislam]

Have no clue about aviation, but going with Pak's history, #1 looks like inevitable....

will Pakistan get j-20?, i dont know, J 31 seems to be some time away, unless PLAAF/PLAAN say yes PAF will be reluctant but j-31 is an ideal choice if PLAAF/PLAAN decides to induct as well
but how far is it out 5 years/10 years?
the rafale is coming now

honestly we re only left with f-16s ...>unlikely or flanker series..>available?, or if negotiated well mix of used trench 1 and new typhoons trench 3..> financing/Germany willingness?

 

[Falcon26]

are you really kidding me..? capital hill has always been hotpot of different lobbying against and for pakistan

its the money that has role...money matters every where, health, defense, insurance...

what are the chances IAF will opt for block 70 if its given to Pakistan, this automatically blocks the f-16 for next 5 years
only an idiot CEO will let Pakistan buy 9-10 block 70 vs 120 Indian deal, look at France and you will understand what i mean, they blocked avionics deal to get Indian deal, the same is true for ZULUs that were initially blocked but once india choose the apaches, they were released

also you need to see the time line F-16s were acquired, Mushi tried multiple times and every time f-16 were first block than something happened in 2006 and they were opened and now again blocked...you have to give credit here to mushi and to fact that USA needed something..

remember what happend to 8 block 52s..??

The refusal of the 8 Block 52 is due to your country’s very poor and inefficient foreign policy and diplomats. You operate in a 1980s framework and use script from that era. Capitol Hill is a dog eat dog world and the only lobbies you have are the ones that guard the family interests of the Bhuttos and Sharifs.

Still the Obama administration was ok to finance the jets, Pakistan could walk away with them if it paid for them like other countries.

Lockheed Martin knows the IAF will never order he F-16s. You bring up the example of the French. The Rafael deal is actually the reason why global arms makers are apprehensive with working with the Indians. They created such a fanfare around the MRCA deal calling it the “mother of all deals” but in the end we’re exposed as a farce. They don’t have the money to buy such lavish stuff. But they create the perception that they are rich and will buy this and that. India will never buy the F-16s. Or the Gripen. It will resort to Russian fighters to bolster low number. The Egyptian Rafael deal was initiated while the Indians were going back and forth with the French. Today Egypt flies the Rafael and more orders are in the pipeline. India won’t get theirs for couple more years. This is Indian procurement for you.

India’s foreign policy is as shambolic and disoriented as yours. This is the country that pays anti Pakistan posters on buses and cabs. Musharraf was able to bulldoze his way through Indian barks because he had a cleareyed focus and he knew how to present Pakistan’s case. Your country is a nuclear power, one of the most important countries in the Muslim world and strategically located. Yet you act like a banana republic that can be bullied at each and every turn. Please don’t blame this on Indian diplomacy. It’s a self sustained injury. If the India’s had any say, Pakistan will cease to exist in a minute.

 

[ziaulislam]

The refusal of the 8 Block 52 is due to your country’s very poor and inefficient foreign policy and diplomats. You operate in a 1980s framework and use script from that era. Capitol Hill is a dog eat dog world and the only lobbies you have are the ones that guard the family interests of the Bhuttos and Sharifs.

Still the Obama administration was ok to finance the jets, Pakistan could walk away with them if it paid for them like other countries.

Lockheed Martin knows the IAF will never order he F-16s. You bring up the example of the French. The Rafael deal is actually the reason why global arms makers are apprehensive with working with the Indians. They created such a fanfare around the MRCA deal calling it the “mother of all deals” but in the end we’re exposed as a farce. They don’t have the money to buy such lavish stuff. But they create the perception that they are rich and will buy this and that. India will never buy the F-16s. Or the Gripen. It will resort to Russian fighters to bolster low number. The Egyptian Rafael deal was initiated while the Indians were going back and forth with the French. Today Egypt flies the Rafael and more orders are in the pipeline. India won’t get theirs for couple more years. This is Indian procurement for you.

India’s foreign policy is as shambolic and disoriented as yours. This is the country that pays anti Pakistan posters on buses and cabs. Musharraf was able to bulldoze his way through Indian barks because he had a cleareyed focus and he knew how to present Pakistan’s case. Your country is a nuclear power, one of the most important countries in the Muslim world and strategically located. Yet you act like a banana republic that can be bullied at each and every turn. Please don’t blame this on Indian diplomacy. It’s a self sustained injury. If the India’s had any say, Pakistan will cease to exist in a minute.

you are eating your own word, you just mentioned lobbying doesnt matter now you say it matters
Pakistan is always going to be on loosing side at capital here, we dont have strong politicians, USA will need a scape goat and india will always have an advantage given their large lobbying, more omney, more support inherently, more culture identity, more dispora

and definitively last but no least as you mentioned, we act like a banana republic with absolutely no self respect, even afghans act better when it comes to sovereignty (and commanders of USAF have to pretend that they took full permission to do any strike vs they bloat when they do drone strike)

and yes he was stupid w.r.t to Baluchistan and afghan war, mushi was much better in handling foreign relationships as he was more vocal and strong, he even covered up foreign strikes just to safe our grace which does matter

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Realistically this is what we really just need to do

a) Increase our JF17 Thunder production capacity from 16 crafts to 50 crafts per year
Kamra Center 2 , Kamra center 3 in Karachi and Gwadar

b) Pickup AESA license (Optional)

We are not in any rush we can wait for 5th Generation Project AZM

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Optional Step NOT URGENT OR LIKE WE REALLY NEED IT IT

c) Do pickup Typhoons if these are available 2 squadrons
No other adjustment is needed till 5th Generation craft becomes available
SPAIN & Italy (Fall Gap 3 )

• Spain's government has tendered a proposal sale of 18 Tranche 1
• Italy has 28 Tranche 1 crafts for sale

3 Squadrons can make up for lost F16 C/D deals for 3 squadrons and we should be fine
This craft has already registered 10 crashes

 

[Falcon26]

you are eating your own word, you just mentioned lobbying doesnt matter now you say it matters
Pakistan is always going to be on loosing side at capital here, we dont have strong politicians, USA will need a scape goat and india will always have an advantage given their large lobbying, more omney, more support inherently, more culture identity, more dispora

and definitively last but no least as you mentioned, we act like a banana republic with absolutely no self respect, even afghans act better when it comes to sovereignty (and commanders of USAF have to pretend that they took full permission to do any strike vs they bloat when they do drone strike)

and yes he was stupid w.r.t to Baluchistan and afghan war, mushi was much better in handling foreign relationships as he was more vocal and strong, he even covered up foreign strikes just to safe our grace which does matter

I mentioned lobbying in the context of your Capitol Hill point. Lobbying matters but strategic interests also do. It’s a combination of both. If there was ever a point in history were Pakistan could leverage Saudi influence in DC to overwhelm Indian theatrics there, it’s now. The saudis have a very powerful repertoire with the Tumps and the new-cons and can be used to taper the anti Pakistan mood at Capitol Hill. For the life of me, I am yet to see a convince reason of what Pakistan gets for its blanket security umbrella for Saudi Arabia. The Egyptians went on a shopping spree without committing a single soldier for the Saudi cause. Pakistan has number of troops stationed in Saudi Arabia and with the palace intrigues ongoing in Riyadh today, Pakistan’s leverage has just doubled. Your decision makers need to get off their brotherly none sense and speak bluntly to the Saudis.

Pakistan has number of tools to check India but unfortunately, hasn’t done so. Your diplomats are busy worrying about how cool they look and who they have access to rather than any real diplomacy. Then you have family business masquerading as democracy where power is based from father to son/daughter. There needs to be a third force in your politics that can break from the past. You have all the ingredients of a great power. This is why you have a country 10x bigger than you by the balls. You just need to compliment it with a visionary and assertive leadership that can imagine a more prosperous and stable future and Pakistan’s position in world affairs.

 

[Signalian]

b) Pickup AESA license (Optional)

Sometimes i think an IRST is more capable and robust than an AESA(or PESA) though both have different functionalities. IRST is a must on every JF-17, AESA may be.

 

[mingle]

I mentioned lobbying in the context of your Capitol Hill point. Lobbying matters but strategic interests also do. It’s a combination of both. If there was ever a point in history were Pakistan could leverage Saudi influence in DC to overwhelm Indian theatrics there, it’s now. The saudis have a very powerful repertoire with the Tumps and the new-cons and can be used to taper the anti Pakistan mood at Capitol Hill. For the life of me, I am yet to see a convince reason of what Pakistan gets for its blanket security umbrella for Saudi Arabia. The Egyptians went on a shopping spree without committing a single soldier for the Saudi cause. Pakistan has number of troops stationed in Saudi Arabia and with the palace intrigues ongoing in Riyadh today, Pakistan’s leverage has just doubled. Your decision makers need to get off their brotherly none sense and speak bluntly to the Saudis.

Pakistan has number of tools to check India but unfortunately, hasn’t done so. Your diplomats are busy worrying about how cool they look and who they have access to rather than any real diplomacy. Then you have family business masquerading as democracy where power is based from father to son/daughter. There needs to be a third force in your politics that can break from the past. You have all the ingredients of a great power. This is why you have a country 10x bigger than you by the balls. You just need to compliment it with a visionary and assertive leadership that can imagine a more prosperous and stable future and Pakistan’s position in world affairs.

U talking about diplomats ? Pak did not have FM last four yrs imagine .

 

[Imran Khan]

if you guys were in-charge you spend our all budget for buy these toys

 

[MastanKhan]

Sometimes i think an IRST is more capable and robust than an AESA(or PESA) though both have different functionalities. IRST is a must on every JF-17, AESA may be.

Hi,

One is like the windshield of a car that you look thru and the other is like the headlights that light up the objects in the dark for you to see---.

When you say " you think " about a weapons system being a must or a maybe---could you please be kind enough to give your reasoning behind that statement---as to why?

 

[Signalian]

Hi,

One is like the windshield of a car that you look thru and the other is like the headlights that light up the objects in the dark for you to see---.

When you say " you think " about a weapons system being a must or a maybe---could you please be kind enough to give your reasoning behind that statement---as to why?

Copied text.


Meanwhile, using active sensors is outright suicidal in combat. Aircraft using active sensors will be quickly detected and targeted by modern defense and EW suites, and unique radar footprint may allow for BVR IFF identification. This can allow passive aircraft to launch BVR infrared or anti-radiation missile, and/or to use data acquired to achieve optimal starting position and speed for following dogfight. Only countermeasure is to turn radar off and rely solely on passive sensors. IRST is especially useful here, as while air temperature at 11 000 meters is -56 degrees Celzius, airframe temperature due to air friction can reach 54,4 degrees Celzius at Mach 1,6 and 116,8 degrees Celzius at Mach 2. It is also very difficult to impossible to jam, and offers greater angular resolution than radar. Result is that flying from cloud to cloud is still a viable combat tactic; but it is not perfect either, as clouds are not always present and may not be close enough for aircraft to avoid detection in the mean time.